enforcing the rules

[Unregistered]

It's a fine line, however. I agree with the overall point, but if you have a ref who calls every infraction, there is no flow to the game and it's just 50 minutes of restarts. I've seen it, and it was awful.

Was she right in every call? Probably. But, at some point, the inadvertent tripping and pushing has to be given some leeway or the kids don't learn anything at all.

You mean, learn something like, maybe how to defend properly without committing fouls?

[Unregistered]

As a youth coach on travel teams and as a parent of a teen ref, the first post was very good. Teen refs are required to take a 8 hour classroom training session, but very little "on the field" training. Field training events are evolving as we speak, but still not there yet. Blowing the whistle in a large group of people and making a call is not easy for some new refs. It has to be learned and one needs confidence and authority, which comes with experience.

Regarding calling fouls at U10 and U12, I believe overall more fouls are not called, than called. Some games, not even one foul is called. The kids are smart enough to know a quiet ref when they see one and they will certainly take advantage of that. At that point, the game of soccer is no longer beautiful and then player safety is at risk. For a ref who calls all the fouls, good for him or her. Its not the refs job to teach the rules of soccer to the players, that is the coach's role. And its not the ref's job to educate parents either. Its refreshing to see a yellow card issued when its appropriate. Too often hard fouls, such as tackling/pushing from behind without playing the ball are not penalized enough. The players will eventually learn what they can't do, may be even in game adjustments.

I've done well over a thousand youth games and I can't recall a single instance when I felt a card was necessary at U10. The vast majority of contact is inadvertant and therefore typically not a foul. At U12 you have a few players who need to be reigned in but still there are very few cards that need to be issued. Still alot of inadvertant contact and at this age you start to see size differences between players. A referee does NOT call every foul. You balance flow and control, always allow for advantage and you ignore the triffling stuff unless it becomes persistent. The problem is when the temperature on the sidelines exceeds the temperature on the field and the players begin to react. The ultimate issue is that the referee has only a few tools to control the game. If you use your cards too early and set too low a bar you are cooked for the rest of the game. A good referee will always do everything possible to avoid carding early. You use your other tools and then card if all else fails (with the obvious exception of egregious fouls...). Carding to control is sometimes a fools errand.

- Cujo

[Unregistered]

You mean, learn something like, maybe how to defend properly without committing fouls?

Riiiight. The fouls were pretty equal on both sides, and many were just uncoordinated kids tripping over each other.

Good try, though.

[Unregistered]

I've done well over a thousand youth games and I can't recall a single instance when I felt a card was necessary at U10. The vast majority of contact is inadvertant and therefore typically not a foul. At U12 you have a few players who need to be reigned in but still there are very few cards that need to be issued. Still alot of inadvertant contact and at this age you start to see size differences between players. A referee does NOT call every foul. You balance flow and control, always allow for advantage and you ignore the triffling stuff unless it becomes persistent. The problem is when the temperature on the sidelines exceeds the temperature on the field and the players begin to react. The ultimate issue is that the referee has only a few tools to control the game. If you use your cards too early and set too low a bar you are cooked for the rest of the game. A good referee will always do everything possible to avoid carding early. You use your other tools and then card if all else fails (with the obvious exception of egregious fouls...). Carding to control is sometimes a fools errand.

- Cujo

^^ This. No reason to call every single foul for a U10 game. It's brutal enough as it is. 50-minute game, and about 15 minutes of actual action. Who learned what?

[Unregistered]

I've done well over a thousand youth games and I can't recall a single instance when I felt a card was necessary at U10. The vast majority of contact is inadvertant and therefore typically not a foul. At U12 you have a few players who need to be reigned in but still there are very few cards that need to be issued. Still alot of inadvertant contact and at this age you start to see size differences between players. A referee does NOT call every foul. You balance flow and control, always allow for advantage and you ignore the triffling stuff unless it becomes persistent. The problem is when the temperature on the sidelines exceeds the temperature on the field and the players begin to react. The ultimate issue is that the referee has only a few tools to control the game. If you use your cards too early and set too low a bar you are cooked for the rest of the game. A good referee will always do everything possible to avoid carding early. You use your other tools and then card if all else fails (with the obvious exception of egregious fouls...). Carding to control is sometimes a fools errand.

- Cujo

I agree with most of what you've said here.

But on this...

"The vast majority of contact is inadvertant and therefore typically not a foul. At U12 you have a few players who need to be reigned in but still there are very few cards that need to be issued. Still alot of inadvertant contact and at this age you start to see size differences between players."

I very much agree that you often have the older, bigger U12 on the same field with a much smaller, younger U11 in town, with a young ref properly not calling all contact that looks worse than it is resulting in parent outrage. It's a no win situation for that young ref with half the crowd on a near constant basis.

But still fitting in your parameters of what's a majority and typical and what's not is that one player in any given game, even at U12, can just be demonstrably and habitually reckless with their play. They may be just one of 20-30 players at the match that day, but having that player(s) for the ref to manage isn't uncommon at all and enough to create that negative coach-ref-parents dynamic...which I think was in the OP's post.

[Unregistered]

I've done well over a thousand youth games and I can't recall a single instance when I felt a card was necessary at U10. The vast majority of contact is inadvertant and therefore typically not a foul. At U12 you have a few players who need to be reigned in but still there are very few cards that need to be issued. Still alot of inadvertant contact and at this age you start to see size differences between players. A referee does NOT call every foul. You balance flow and control, always allow for advantage and you ignore the triffling stuff unless it becomes persistent. The problem is when the temperature on the sidelines exceeds the temperature on the field and the players begin to react. The ultimate issue is that the referee has only a few tools to control the game. If you use your cards too early and set too low a bar you are cooked for the rest of the game. A good referee will always do everything possible to avoid carding early. You use your other tools and then card if all else fails (with the obvious exception of egregious fouls...). Carding to control is sometimes a fools errand.

- Cujo

I agree that early carding can set a ref up for issues later in the game. However, I've seen too many games at the U10-12 level where the big kid who has always dominated with size and speed begins to get schooled by the smaller, more nimble kid who has begun to develop real skills. The frustrated big kids often resort to their only remaining remedy: knock the smaller kids around a bit. Run through them, make contact as often as possible, and generally use physicality to find a way to regain his or her advantage. (It's even worse when the football dads start cheering wildly for hard tackles.) Getting early control of games like this is crucial, or it can be a bloodbath by the 2nd half.

[Unregistered]

I agree that early carding can set a ref up for issues later in the game. However, I've seen too many games at the U10-12 level where the big kid who has always dominated with size and speed begins to get schooled by the smaller, more nimble kid who has begun to develop real skills. The frustrated big kids often resort to their only remaining remedy: knock the smaller kids around a bit. Run through them, make contact as often as possible, and generally use physicality to find a way to regain his or her advantage. (It's even worse when the football dads start cheering wildly for hard tackles.) Getting early control of games like this is crucial, or it can be a bloodbath by the 2nd half.

Regarding u-little games getting out of control: My kid's team played a tournament last summer w/ many SE MA teams. Ten minutes into game a 10 yo player was called for his second "elbow to the ribcage" foul. The ref stopped the game, went over to the coach of the other team and said "He knows what he is doing, I know what he is doing, and you know what he's doing. You need to tell him to stop doing that or he's not going to be allowed to play." I later learned that the kid was the coach's son, and when I saw the team play in a later round he was back at it. I believe persistent fouling is TAUGHT by some teams, and they indeed wait to see what a particular ref lets them get away with. The problem is not the referees, but rather the "Win First" mentality of misguided clubs/coaches.

[Unregistered]

I agree with most of what you've said here.

But on this...

"The vast majority of contact is inadvertant and therefore typically not a foul. At U12 you have a few players who need to be reigned in but still there are very few cards that need to be issued. Still alot of inadvertant contact and at this age you start to see size differences between players."

I very much agree that you often have the older, bigger U12 on the same field with a much smaller, younger U11 in town, with a young ref properly not calling all contact that looks worse than it is resulting in parent outrage. It's a no win situation for that young ref with half the crowd on a near constant basis.

But still fitting in your parameters of what's a majority and typical and what's not is that one player in any given game, even at U12, can just be demonstrably and habitually reckless with their play. They may be just one of 20-30 players at the match that day, but having that player(s) for the ref to manage isn't uncommon at all and enough to create that negative coach-ref-parents dynamic...which I think was in the OP's post.

I see your point. My experience is that there are players in that age group that are reckless. It would be nice if the coach would reign them in BUT that does not always happen. I had one U12 player who had this bad habit of sliding into the goalies proximity with cleats up. It was only a matter of time before contact was made. Speak to the player, speak to the coach, no result out comes the card.... I did a fair number of games with this player and it was just a bad habit. The card worked in this case. After I carded her she threw herself onto the ground and had a hissy fit. What was clear was that the player was a prima donna who was a clear outlier skill wise who never had limits set on her. True story: my wife was with me at the game and said in the car on the way home "I can't believe you made a twelve year old girl cry".... Hard to have rabbit ears with your wife....

Where the parents get lost sometimes is on an equal challenge by two players where the smaller player goes down. Parents become conditioned to the thought process of "somebody hit the turf - then there must be a foul"......

Good discussion though and it is nice to see people understanding the nuances of the dynamic of how a game is managed by the players/officials/coaches/parents. I include parents because with the younger players their sideline behavior has a demonstrable impact on what happens on the field.

- Cujo

[Unregistered]

Regarding u-little games getting out of control: My kid's team played a tournament last summer w/ many SE MA teams. Ten minutes into game a 10 yo player was called for his second "elbow to the ribcage" foul. The ref stopped the game, went over to the coach of the other team and said "He knows what he is doing, I know what he is doing, and you know what he's doing. You need to tell him to stop doing that or he's not going to be allowed to play." I later learned that the kid was the coach's son, and when I saw the team play in a later round he was back at it. I believe persistent fouling is TAUGHT by some teams, and they indeed wait to see what a particular ref lets them get away with. The problem is not the referees, but rather the "Win First" mentality of misguided clubs/coaches.

I agree. The inadvertant stuff, let it go especially at the younger ages. But the intentional fouls need to be called so kids can learn that it isn't right and won't be tolerated. I too have seen certain teams by physically aggressive as a whole. I can only assume they are being coached that way. Other teams do not do this and rely on skill. There is a right and wrong here folks.

[Unregistered]

I agree. The inadvertant stuff, let it go especially at the younger ages. But the intentional fouls need to be called so kids can learn that it isn't right and won't be tolerated. I too have seen certain teams by physically aggressive as a whole. I can only assume they are being coached that way. Other teams do not do this and rely on skill. There is a right and wrong here folks.

It might not even be coached that way but taught by ignoring the issue - kid does it, gets away with it in the game, coach doesn't say anything. Player then keeps repeating, pushing the envelope on what's acceptable/what they can get away with. A ref can only teach a small lesson. A coach has a player all year long.

We also had a team that must have been coached to flop. It got to be truly comical - you would have thought their legs were made of spaghetti. Ref finally started talking sternly with the worst offenders and suddenly - no more falls! A miracle!

[Unregistered]

Regarding u-little games getting out of control: My kid's team played a tournament last summer w/ many SE MA teams. Ten minutes into game a 10 yo player was called for his second "elbow to the ribcage" foul. The ref stopped the game, went over to the coach of the other team and said "He knows what he is doing, I know what he is doing, and you know what he's doing. You need to tell him to stop doing that or he's not going to be allowed to play." I later learned that the kid was the coach's son, and when I saw the team play in a later round he was back at it. I believe persistent fouling is TAUGHT by some teams, and they indeed wait to see what a particular ref lets them get away with. The problem is not the referees, but rather the "Win First" mentality of misguided clubs/coaches.

I think you're 100% right. I've seen this too much. Town organizations and clubs talk a great game about conduct policy and ethics, but I've been around enough to see that those coaches who fall into the category described don't get challenged for their methods, much less disciplined, if the perception is that based on results they're successful. The mistake there is that what looks like game success at 10, 11 or 12 isn't development that will sustain and matter just a couple of years later.

[Unregistered]

Good discussion though and it is nice to see people understanding the nuances of the dynamic of how a game is managed by the players/officials/coaches/parents. I include parents because with the younger players their sideline behavior has a demonstrable impact on what happens on the field.

- Cujo

Appreciate the response.

Importance of the last sentence cannot be overstated.

A simple exercise for any parent is to tape the game and watch with your kid. If even just what's being heard off camera while watching your kid play has you or your kid embarrassed, it's time to reel it in.

[Unregistered]

OP here...i was definitely not trying to bash referees. I was pointing out what i thought was a great example of how to officiate a game with younger players. The ref took the time to explain calls, provided opportunities to change what they were doing, and in the end also had the coach do his part but didnt take the extreme step of red carding. I am not familiar with how they are trained to handle such things, so I was curious as to what others were seeing. This same gentleman also officiated my sons game and i thought did a nice job during that game as well. Are they all perfect..of course not.

[Unregistered]

I see your point. My experience is that there are players in that age group that are reckless. It would be nice if the coach would reign them in BUT that does not always happen. I had one U12 player who had this bad habit of sliding into the goalies proximity with cleats up. It was only a matter of time before contact was made. Speak to the player, speak to the coach, no result out comes the card.... I did a fair number of games with this player and it was just a bad habit. The card worked in this case. After I carded her she threw herself onto the ground and had a hissy fit. What was clear was that the player was a prima donna who was a clear outlier skill wise who never had limits set on her. True story: my wife was with me at the game and said in the car on the way home "I can't believe you made a twelve year old girl cry".... Hard to have rabbit ears with your wife....

Where the parents get lost sometimes is on an equal challenge by two players where the smaller player goes down. Parents become conditioned to the thought process of "somebody hit the turf - then there must be a foul"......

Good discussion though and it is nice to see people understanding the nuances of the dynamic of how a game is managed by the players/officials/coaches/parents. I include parents because with the younger players their sideline behavior has a demonstrable impact on what happens on the field.

- Cujo

Looks like Cujo unquit. All good things must come to an end. The short lived career as a rock God is apparently over.

[Unregistered]

Looks like Cujo unquit. All good things must come to an end. The short lived career as a rock God is apparently over.

29 posts and not 1 where a referee was thanked.
Won't matter though, because refs are the new dodo bird...
They're already an endangered species...