Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Guide to the NESCACs (or I gotta fever for more NESCAC)

Collapse
X
  •  
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Guide to the NESCACs (or I gotta fever for more NESCAC)

    Given all the attention -- glowing praise, bashing, heartache -- on the NESCACs in this forum, I thought it would be interesting to just devote a thread to the whole NESCAC topic. Maybe we can give them their due and at the same time demystify them a bit. Below I'll give my thoughts on each of them based on visiting almost all of them and reading voluminous materials about each.

    First though, what is the allure? Why so much energy on this board about this group of schools? Well, a good number of folks on this forum probably attended one, and another good number have kids that have attended or are attending one. Including the bashers among us, most of us would be thrilled to send our kids to one. They are targets -- just like the great cluster of New England prep and boarding schools -- of an elitism critique, and how many times during an election do you hear, usually very negatively, comments about the "Northeastern elite"? The classic trifecta is an elite NE boarding school, followed by an Ivy (usually NE Ivy) or "small" NE Ivy, followed by a NE Ivy grad school (Kerry and Bush are ultra-classic examples). These schools are associated with lots and lots of money, summering (often in own summer home) on the Vineyard or Long Island, and sometimes there is a family flat in Manhattan. A lot of privilege, via some combination of privilege and accomplishment. We are talking about the very, very elite -- making these schools the most or among the most desired and also therefore envied and hated. As many have pointed out, there are equally good schools and in some instances maybe preferable schools elsewhere in the country, especially depending on the kid, but there is no region of the country that has the concentration of exceptional elite liberal arts colleges as we have in New England. We are in the mecca, and these schools -- along with the NE Ivies and prep schools and popovers -- are what New England is known for...New England's calling card, shall we say.

    Amherst and Williams, or Williams and Amherst -- For more than a half-century, these two have alternated between #1 and #2 or tied in the USA. You can't really think of one without the other. Probably the only two LACs where you wouldn't think twice about a kid choosing them OVER an Ivy, and I don't just mean Cornell, Brown, or Dartmouth. Any superiority that Williams claims is based solely on its history of athletics dominance. I give the nod to Amherst on location. They are both the gold standard. My own bias regarding these two is that they are so intertwined with the elitism machine that one wonders how much they can allow or encourage real "outside-the-box" diversity and exploration. In terms of non-NESCAC alternatives across the country, these two really don't have any. Maybe Carleton. Maybe Pomona. Dartmouth is probably the biggest overlap.

    Bowdoin and Middlebury, or Middlebury and Bowdoin -- The closest thing to the two above. My sense is that Middlebury has maintained its spot on the doorstep of the Amherst and Williams for years, and Bowdoin has risen (to the point of being one of the most desirable LACs in the country). Both have in my opinion two of the better locations. Both have become almost impossible to get in like the two above. Many also would not blink about choosing either one over Dartmouth. Not sure about this, but don't either is quite as staid as the two above, and I like that. I'd rather my kid go to one of these than Williams or Amherst. Non-NESCAC alternatives nationally: Carleton, Haverford, Kenyon, Pomona, Davidson.

    Wesleyan -- My personal favorite and I think in a category by itself (locally). For my money, what college is all about. Diversity, a bit of an edge intellectually and socially.
    I just think this is an incredible school. Perfect size, a little bigger than most of the others. Alas, also almost impossible to get in and has tremendous national reach and appeal. Median SATs for class of 2014....straight 730s. 75th percentile....straight 770s. Get yourself a copy of The Gatekeepers and enjoy (and get depressed). I think those that think of Wesleyan as #3 in the trio of the "Little 3" are making a big mistake. Also suffers just a bit by proximity to Yale. Non-NESCAC alternatives: Chicago, Swarthmore, Vassar, Grinnell, Oberlin, Macalester, Reed.

    Tufts -- Personally I would put Colby next, but I know Tufts is a great school, and also bordering on impossible to get in going by SAT scores. I'll be honest, I don't really get Tufts. Maybe because a "mutt" of a school as some guides say. Much bigger than the others and also seems in its own category. Maybe suffers from proximity to so much Boston competition with Harvard, MIT, BC, Wellesley, etc. I'm sure someone else can give a more favorable review. I can't think of many good non-NESCAC comparisons. Maybe Washington U, Emory, Brandeis, Wake Forest?

    Colby -- Another personal favorite and a NESCAC on the rise. Comfortably settling into the spot Bowdoin was 5-10 years ago, and in terms of the Maine group I think 20 years ago people would think "Bowdoin and Bates" and now they think "Bowdoin and Colby." Only negatives for me are way too white and too high a percentage of prep school kids. Otherwise, a gem. Increased selectivity -- median straight 700s for 2013 and likely rising -- no doubt due to dropping admit numbers at schools above, and so Colby has become one of the few "reach, but maybe still within reach" for many. This dynamic will propel this school into the near impossible group if it hasn't already. Another that is not so easy in terms of non-NESCAC comparisons: Kenyon, Davidson, Whitman, Hamilton...maybe Grinnell and Macalester (though better diversity, edgier, and bit more intellectual at those two).

    Bates, Trinity, Conn College -- All outstanding schools, but someone's got to be at the bottom, right? As suggested above, my sense is that Bates has slipped a little. Maybe not the endowment of the ones above. Hopefully someone will tell me I'm wrong. Trinity is tough to figure. Suffers from proximity to Yale and Wesleyan and reputation of being "the best school I could get in to" (meaning its a popular fallback choice). Hartford doesn't help, but for some this can be viewed as a positive compared to many NESCACs that are remote and suffer from diversity deficiency. Engineering option a big plus. Connecticut College in some ways I think is the best positioned of these 3. Not as saddled with the history of being compared to the others, maybe a little less preppy and elitist. Because of very difficult college admissions landscape, these 3 get a ton of attention as "possibles" for those that can't get in one of the above. And so they are getting tougher and tougher to get in as well. A few years ago, you would think that straight 650s or above would get you in. Now? Not so much. Non-NESCAC comparables: Union, Hamilton, Skidmore, Dickinson, Bucknell, Muhlenberg, Lafayette, Lewis & Clark, Rhodes, Denison, Wooster, and a host of others slightly above or slightly below.

    I'm a bit confused about Hamilton. Wasn't it a NESCAC, but now it's with Vassar, Union, RPI, Skidmore, Clarkson, etc.?

    #2
    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
    I'm a bit confused about Hamilton. Wasn't it a NESCAC, but now it's with Vassar, Union, RPI, Skidmore, Clarkson, etc.?
    As NESCAC is the New England Small College Athletic Conference, colleges in upstate NY are not likely to be a part of it.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      Given all the attention -- glowing praise, bashing, heartache -- on the NESCACs in this forum, I thought it would be interesting to just devote a thread to the whole NESCAC topic. Maybe we can give them their due and at the same time demystify them a bit. Below I'll give my thoughts on each of them based on visiting almost all of them and reading voluminous materials about each.

      First though, what is the allure? Why so much energy on this board about this group of schools? Well, a good number of folks on this forum probably attended one, and another good number have kids that have attended or are attending one. Including the bashers among us, most of us would be thrilled to send our kids to one. They are targets -- just like the great cluster of New England prep and boarding schools -- of an elitism critique, and how many times during an election do you hear, usually very negatively, comments about the "Northeastern elite"? The classic trifecta is an elite NE boarding school, followed by an Ivy (usually NE Ivy) or "small" NE Ivy, followed by an NE Ivy grad school (Kerry and Bush are ultra-classic examples). These schools are associated with lots and lots of money, summering (often in own summer home) on the Vineyard or Long Island, and sometimes there is a family flat in Manhattan. A lot of privilege, via some combination of privilege and accomplishment. We are talking about the very, very elite -- making these schools the most or among the most desired and also therefore envied and hated. As many have pointed out, there are equally good schools and in some instances maybe preferable schools elsewhere in the country, especially depending on the kid, but there is no region of the country that has the concentration of exceptional elite liberal arts colleges as we have in New England. We are in the mecca, and these schools -- along with the NE Ivies and prep schools and popovers -- are what New England is known for...New England's calling card, shall we say.

      Amherst and Williams, or Williams and Amherst -- For more than a half-century, these two have alternated between #1 and #2 or tied in the USA. You can't really think of one without the other. Probably the only two LACs where you wouldn't think twice about a kid choosing them OVER an Ivy, and I don't just mean Cornell, Brown, or Dartmouth. Any superiority that Williams claims is based solely on its history of athletics dominance. I give the nod to Amherst on location. They are both the gold standard. My own bias regarding these two is that they are so intertwined with the elitism machine that one wonders how much they can allow or encourage real "outside-the-box" diversity and exploration. In terms of non-NESCAC alternatives across the country, these two really don't have any. Maybe Carleton. Maybe Pomona. Dartmouth is probably the biggest overlap.

      Bowdoin and Middlebury, or Middlebury and Bowdoin -- The closest thing to the two above. My sense is that Middlebury has maintained its spot on the doorstep of the Amherst and Williams for years, and Bowdoin has risen (to the point of being one of the most desirable LACs in the country). Both have in my opinion two of the better locations. Both have become almost impossible to get in like the two above. Many also would not blink about choosing either one over Dartmouth. Not sure about this, but don't either is quite as staid as the two above, and I like that. I'd rather my kid go to one of these than Williams or Amherst. Non-NESCAC alternatives nationally: Carleton, Haverford, Kenyon, Pomona, Davidson.

      Wesleyan -- My personal favorite and I think in a category by itself (locally). For my money, what college is all about. Diversity, a bit of an edge intellectually and socially.
      I just think this is an incredible school. Perfect size, a little bigger than most of the others. Alas, also almost impossible to get in and has tremendous national reach and appeal. Median SATs for class of 2014....straight 730s. 75th percentile....straight 770s. Get yourself a copy of The Gatekeepers and enjoy (and get depressed). I think those that think of Wesleyan as #3 in the trio of the "Little 3" are making a big mistake. Also suffers just a bit by proximity to Yale. Non-NESCAC alternatives: Chicago, Swarthmore, Vassar, Grinnell, Oberlin, Macalester, Reed.

      Tufts -- Personally I would put Colby next, but I know Tufts is a great school, and also bordering on impossible to get in going by SAT scores. I'll be honest, I don't really get Tufts. Maybe because a "mutt" of a school as some guides say. Much bigger than the others and also seems in its own category. Maybe suffers from proximity to so much Boston competition with Harvard, MIT, BC, Wellesley, etc. I'm sure someone else can give a more favorable review. I can't think of many good non-NESCAC comparisons. Maybe Washington U, Emory, Brandeis, Wake Forest?

      Colby -- Another personal favorite and a NESCAC on the rise. Comfortably settling into the spot Bowdoin was 5-10 years ago, and in terms of the Maine group I think 20 years ago people would think "Bowdoin and Bates" and now they think "Bowdoin and Colby." Only negatives for me are way too white and too high a percentage of prep school kids. Otherwise, a gem. Increased selectivity -- median straight 700s for 2013 and likely rising -- no doubt due to dropping admit numbers at schools above, and so Colby has become one of the few "reach, but maybe still within reach" for many. This dynamic will propel this school into the near impossible group if it hasn't already. Another that is not so easy in terms of non-NESCAC comparisons: Kenyon, Davidson, Whitman, Hamilton...maybe Grinnell and Macalester (though better diversity, edgier, and bit more intellectual at those two).

      Bates, Trinity, Conn College -- All outstanding schools, but someone's got to be at the bottom, right? As suggested above, my sense is that Bates has slipped a little. Maybe not the endowment of the ones above. Hopefully someone will tell me I'm wrong. Trinity is tough to figure. Suffers from proximity to Yale and Wesleyan and reputation of being "the best school I could get in to" (meaning its a popular fallback choice). Hartford doesn't help, but for some this can be viewed as a positive compared to many NESCACs that are remote and suffer from diversity deficiency. Engineering option a big plus. Connecticut College in some ways I think is the best positioned of these 3. Not as saddled with the history of being compared to the others, maybe a little less preppy and elitist. Because of very difficult college admissions landscape, these 3 get a ton of attention as "possibles" for those that can't get in one of the above. And so they are getting tougher and tougher to get in as well. A few years ago, you would think that straight 650s or above would get you in. Now? Not so much. Non-NESCAC comparables: Union, Hamilton, Skidmore, Dickinson, Bucknell, Muhlenberg, Lafayette, Lewis & Clark, Rhodes, Denison, Wooster, and a host of others slightly above or slightly below.

      I'm a bit confused about Hamilton. Wasn't it a NESCAC, but now it's with Vassar, Union, RPI, Skidmore, Clarkson, etc.?
      Great review of these incresingly competitive schools. Back in the day, they were the safety schools for the Ivy applicants. Took me totally by surprise now that my kids are almost college age how incredibly competitive they have become. Yikes!! And yes, they do want to go to one of them. Sort of like the draw of the ISL among private schoolers in the area.

      So, on to all the soccer programs. Are they all at least decent? Boys vs girls teams? I know all about Williams and Amherst (have boys) being tops, but not sure how all the others stack up.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        As NESCAC is the New England Small College Athletic Conference, colleges in upstate NY are not likely to be a part of it.
        Joining he NESCAC in '011, I believe. Maybe they will change the name to the NESCAC + 1USNYLAC.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
          Great review of these incresingly competitive schools. Back in the day, they were the safety schools for the Ivy applicants. Took me totally by surprise now that my kids are almost college age how incredibly competitive they have become. Yikes!! And yes, they do want to go to one of them. Sort of like the draw of the ISL among private schoolers in the area.

          So, on to all the soccer programs. Are they all at least decent? Boys vs girls teams? I know all about Williams and Amherst (have boys) being tops, but not sure how all the others stack up.
          In the last 5-6 years, on the women's side, Amherst, Middlebury and Williams have been consistently very good. Conn. Coll. and Trinity have traditionally not been very good and the rest tend to be dependent on a real good year of recruiting. That great class can carry some success for a year or two but it is usually fleeting.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
            Joining he NESCAC in '011, I believe. Maybe they will change the name to the NESCAC + 1USNYLAC.
            Think you are correct on soccer, but I beleive that different sports may have made the transition a year or so earlier.

            Comment


              #7
              If athletics is important to the student it might be useful to look at the Directors Cup ranking which measures the overall success of the athletic program at D1, D2 and D3 schools. Although no system is perfect, schools with higher rankings tend to put more emphasis on athletics. This might be important to prospecitve student athletes because it helps to guage how big a factor athletics is to the culture of the school. Are athletics something the school/studentbody cares about or something that they merely tolerate?

              Among D3 schools, a bunch of the NESCACs are the real deal:

              http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/...3dcupjun23.pdf

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                As NESCAC is the New England Small College Athletic Conference, colleges in upstate NY are not likely to be a part of it.
                Sorry to be so dumb.... but I thought Hamilton used to be in a conference with these other schools, as I know I've seen a banner for Hamilton hanging in NESCAC arenas (like the hockey arena at Middlebury) several years ago. And if the poster below is correct, then I wasn't far off if Hamilton is joining in the future.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Kinda partial to Wes myself, hope their womens soccer will build on last years success. how come they don't use that beautiful new turf field for soccer? I heard it's just field hockey??

                  Comment


                    #10
                    What about the UAA schools? Does anyone have any sort of info on them? Brandeis would be the only local school, however I hear the academics are terrific and soccer ins't too bad.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                      What about the UAA schools? Does anyone have any sort of info on them? Brandeis would be the only local school, however I hear the academics are terrific and soccer ins't too bad.
                      Why don't you start another thread for those? At least several were noted in the original post here.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        If athletics is important to the student it might be useful to look at the Directors Cup ranking which measures the overall success of the athletic program at D1, D2 and D3 schools. Although no system is perfect, schools with higher rankings tend to put more emphasis on athletics. This might be important to prospecitve student athletes because it helps to guage how big a factor athletics is to the culture of the school. Are athletics something the school/studentbody cares about or something that they merely tolerate?

                        Among D3 schools, a bunch of the NESCACs are the real deal:

                        http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/...3dcupjun23.pdf
                        Good data, although can't tell if soccer and hockey even included.

                        You raise an interesting question. My guess is that most don't care how strong the program is if they can get into one of the ones they want. It's a nice bonus that Williams and Amherst are rated so high athletically, but their broader top ratings are not based on athletic rating, and if Conn College had the best soccer team I wouldn't choose Conn College over Amherst if Amherst happened to be 100 slots lower in athletic ranking. Also could be argued that the premium on athletics at some of these schools is actually a negative. After all, it's D3, and the athletic emphasis at some, including at the admissions level, may be too overweighted. On the other hand, who can argue with median SATs in the 750s+?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          As NESCAC is the New England Small College Athletic Conference, colleges in upstate NY are not likely to be a part of it.
                          Hamilton is and has been for a very long time a NESCAC school. Check the web-site. Due to it's location many teams play/played a Liberty league schedule, though more and more of the teams are playing a full NESCAC schedule now.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                            Hamilton is and has been for a very long time a NESCAC school. Check the web-site. Due to it's location many teams play/played a Liberty league schedule, though more and more of the teams are playing a full NESCAC schedule now.
                            That's what I thought, but I got confused by references to the other conference and figured Hamilton must have switched in the past few years. Thanks for the clarification...poor job by the other poster who highlighted New England in bold....and I apologize for the exclusion in the original post.

                            I probably know the least about Hamilton in comparison to the others, and so just based on what I've read I'd place in Colby range with same weaknesses and maybe those weaknesses (white, preppiness quotient) even higher. Location also a minus from my perspective.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Last 5 NESCAC champions on the women's side:

                              2005 Bates
                              2006 Middlebury
                              2007 Williams
                              2008 Williams
                              2009 Willliams

                              Comment

                              Previously entered content was automatically saved. Restore or Discard.
                              Auto-Saved
                              x
                              Insert: Thumbnail Small Medium Large Fullsize Remove  
                              x
                              Working...
                              X