Technical vs. Size? DA Players

[Unregistered]

My son scrimmaged against the U23 women's team in the run up to their world cup victory in Japan. We played 3 games against them at IMG. My son was 13 at the time.

From that experience, the women were the technically better players but not physically. When it to came to speed the 13-15 boy were on par or faster than the women's team.

[Unregistered]

You keep making my argument for me. Your quote: "making them (the boys) bigger, faster, quicker, etc".

Again, if a team has superior athletes, they are probably gonna come out on top. You can't compare the athleticism and quickness of elite male athletes to elite female athletes; whether they are 16 or 30.

You left out the thing that was making them bigger, faster and quicker. Genetics/Testosterone. I think you are mistaken, because you have just made my point and have agreed with me. You said, "Again, if a team has superior athletes, they are probably gonna come out on top." Thank you for agreeing with me after all of this long conversation. Superior athletic genetics is what is needed in USMNT. Our USMNT soccer players are bottom of the barrel and inferior athletes. Argentina was nice to us and they destroyed us in the Copa 4-0 because they had superior athletes, just like the USMNT U17 (16 year old boys/Not legal to vote, see an R rated movie, drink, smoke, go to an adult dancing establishment, etc..., but legal to drive) beat the 2012 Olympic Champion USWNT. Speed kills. Lateral as well as north and south. Anybody who thinks the USMNT lateral speed & north and south speed is equal to Argentina, Chile or Colombia needs to have their head examined. Just like if anybody were to say the USWNT lateral speed & north and south speed is equal to U17 USMNT Boys, then they would also need to have their head examined

[Unregistered]

You left out the thing that was making them bigger, faster and quicker. Genetics/Testosterone. I think you are mistaken, because you have just made my point and have agreed with me. You said, "Again, if a team has superior athletes, they are probably gonna come out on top." Thank you for agreeing with me after all of this long conversation. Superior athletic genetics is what is needed in USMNT. Our USMNT soccer players are bottom of the barrel and inferior athletes. Argentina was nice to us and they destroyed us in the Copa 4-0 because they had superior athletes, just like the USMNT U17 (16 year old boys/Not legal to vote, see an R rated movie, drink, smoke, go to an adult dancing establishment, etc..., but legal to drive) beat the 2012 Olympic Champion USWNT. Speed kills. Lateral as well as north and south. Anybody who thinks the USMNT lateral speed & north and south speed is equal to Argentina, Chile or Colombia needs to have their head examined. Just like if anybody were to say the USWNT lateral speed & north and south speed is equal to U17 USMNT Boys, then they would also need to have their head examined

If you are gonna try to make a point and use MY quote, use the entire context of what I was saying. "The more athletic team wins", yes,......if both teams have equal soccer IQ. You left that part out. Soccer IQ is much more important than SportIQ in any other sport.
BTW, if you think Argentina beat us because they are superior athletes, then you just lost all credibility. And you probably don't know soccer or didn't grow up playing it. Argentina grew up playing soccer. They were developed in a different way. Especially Messi in Spain; all 5'6" of him. They were all developed to pass the ball, find combinations, work tactically. All things that the U.S. lack. Argentina didn't beat us because they were more physical or faster. LOL. Please try to understand the concept of SoccerIQ . It has nothing to do with "out running an opponent". Or being stronger. It's all about moving the ball efficiently around your opponent as a team with as little individual effort a possible. Stick to swimming; or American football.

[Unregistered]

If you are gonna try to make a point and use MY quote, use the entire context of what I was saying. "The more athletic team wins", yes,......if both teams have equal soccer IQ. You left that part out. Soccer IQ is much more important than SportIQ in any other sport.
BTW, if you think Argentina beat us because they are superior athletes, then you just lost all credibility. And you probably don't know soccer or didn't grow up playing it. Argentina grew up playing soccer. They were developed in a different way. Especially Messi in Spain; all 5'6" of him. They were all developed to pass the ball, find combinations, work tactically. All things that the U.S. lack. Argentina didn't beat us because they were more physical or faster. LOL. Please try to understand the concept of SoccerIQ . It has nothing to do with "out running an opponent". Or being stronger. It's all about moving the ball efficiently around your opponent as a team with as little individual effort a possible. Stick to swimming; or American football.

all you have to do is watch the Germany play. Big, Fast and quick with a high level of soccer IQ.

[Unregistered]

Beware of Fad Dad

all you have to do is watch the Germany play. Big, Fast and quick with a high level of soccer IQ.

Fat Dad in the sports car from the great white north will disagree with you for he thinks slow weak skinny midfielders who shoot for goals at every touch is the way to go and the coach is stupid if he disagrees. Good thing Fat Dad tells the coaches how to coach to their faces or behind their backs to all the parents. Yes sir wee. Nothing like losing because Fat Dad blew up the team. Thank goodness he left.

[Unregistered]

If you are gonna try to make a point and use MY quote, use the entire context of what I was saying. "The more athletic team wins", yes,......if both teams have equal soccer IQ. You left that part out. Soccer IQ is much more important than SportIQ in any other sport.
BTW, if you think Argentina beat us because they are superior athletes, then you just lost all credibility. And you probably don't know soccer or didn't grow up playing it. Argentina grew up playing soccer. They were developed in a different way. Especially Messi in Spain; all 5'6" of him. They were all developed to pass the ball, find combinations, work tactically. All things that the U.S. lack. Argentina didn't beat us because they were more physical or faster. LOL. Please try to understand the concept of SoccerIQ . It has nothing to do with "out running an opponent". Or being stronger. It's all about moving the ball efficiently around your opponent as a team with as little individual effort a possible. Stick to swimming; or American football.

You know how you can tell when an individual is losing in a debate is whenever they complain about a direct quote being taken out of context. You wrote it, not me, and so you own it. If you believe our USMNT soccer players are the best athletes in America, then to paraphrase Judge Chamberlin Haller's statement Mr. Gambini, in My Cousin Vinny, you are on drugs. ALL sports are about 3 things: first athleticism, then spots IQ and skills. USMNT are inferior to the rest of the world's soccer powers in athleticism and soccer IQ. We have slower and less quick athletes with inferior soccer IQ when compared to the other world powers like Argentina, Chile, Germany, etc... and that is a losing combination. Messi has been recorded by FIFA as one of the fastest players and he is known as the King of Acceleration because his lateral quickness is ridiculous, but you would have us believe that those athletic gifts are secondary to what makes him such a great player, and that it's his soccer IQ that is the most important factor. That is rubbish. I think Argentina destroyed us because USMNT soccer athletes are vastly inferior to Argentina's athletes and are vastly inferior to Argentina's soccer IQ. You don't seem to understand sports and live in this delusional bubble that Sports IQ matters the most in ONLY soccer and it trumps athleticism. Newsflash, amazingly intelligent young men and women with extremely high mental IQ's and sports IQ's and skills have failed at EVERY sport because their athleticism is inferior and delusional parents like you use every excuse imaginable to rationalize away the fact (probably getting nasty towards the coach, parents and players) that ALL coaches in EVERY sport want the best athletes with the best skills. Basketball and football players athleticism in the USA are superior to soccer players in EVERY measurable metric. USMNT are rec level athletic talent when you compare them to USA basketball and football players. You seem to think that USMNT soccer players rec level athleticism will beat other nations elite athletes if just only our soccer IQ was equal to theirs. Your thinking is delusional.

[Unregistered]

Basketball is an example of a sport where size (height) absolutely makes a difference because you play to a basket 10 feet high.
Same with swimming. Odds are the longer leaner athlete will swim faster than the short swimmer.

Soccer is a sport that is neutralized by the ball being on the ground and decision-making being the most important factors. Hockey is almost the same way. Yes...there are huge guys in hockey that can hit. But size is nuetralized by the puck being on the ice and decision-making being important factors. Gretzky was not physically imposing. He was highly skilled and his hockey IQ was superior.

It's interesting you are the person who has been proven ignorant on swimming sports knowledge, ignorant on basketball knowledge, and know I'll prove you wrong about hockey, and after you have been proven an ignoramus on multiple sports, we are to trust your knowledge on soccer? Give me a break. Wayne Gretzky had average size and speed and superior skills and hockey IQ. The reason he won 4 Cups with the Oilers is because he played with some of the fastest, quickest, biggest and greatest players in the league. Glenn Anderson, Paul Coffey, Grant Fuhr, Jari Kurri, Mark Messier, Glen Sather. All of those teammates of Gretzky are in the NHL Hall of Fame. By the way, Mark Messier won multiple NHL MVP's and captained two separate teams to Stanely Cup Championships without Gretzky. Messier won the Stanely Cup twice without Wayne Gretzky on two separate teams, the Oilers without Gretzky and the Rangers without Gretzky. Gretzky was great, but I would take Messier over Gretzky. Paul Coffey won the Stanely Cup without Wayne Gretzky on the Penguins. Glenn Anderson won the Stanely Cup without Wayne Gretzky on the Oilers. Grant Fuhr won the Stanely Cup without Wayne Gretzky on the Oilers. Jari Kurri won the Stanely Cup without Wayne Gretzky on the Oilers. When Michael Jordan left the Bulls, Pippen and Kukoc could not win a championship without him. Wayne Gretzky's greatness is a little overrated when his team proved that they did not need him to win championships after he left them. Gretzky needed them, more than they needed him. You can be slower and smaller like Gretzky was if you are surrounded by great athletes (Gretzky played with six Hall of Famers) who are fast, quick, big, strong, etc. Do you get it yet?

[Unregistered]

You know how you can tell when an individual is losing in a debate is whenever they complain about a direct quote being taken out of context. You wrote it, not me, and so you own it. If you believe our USMNT soccer players are the best athletes in America, then to paraphrase Judge Chamberlin Haller's statement Mr. Gambini, in My Cousin Vinny, you are on drugs. ALL sports are about 3 things: first athleticism, then spots IQ and skills. USMNT are inferior to the rest of the world's soccer powers in athleticism and soccer IQ. We have slower and less quick athletes with inferior soccer IQ when compared to the other world powers like Argentina, Chile, Germany, etc... and that is a losing combination. Messi has been recorded by FIFA as one of the fastest players and he is known as the King of Acceleration because his lateral quickness is ridiculous, but you would have us believe that those athletic gifts are secondary to what makes him such a great player, and that it's his soccer IQ that is the most important factor. That is rubbish. I think Argentina destroyed us because USMNT soccer athletes are vastly inferior to Argentina's athletes and are vastly inferior to Argentina's soccer IQ. You don't seem to understand sports and live in this delusional bubble that Sports IQ matters the most in ONLY soccer and it trumps athleticism. Newsflash, amazingly intelligent young men and women with extremely high mental IQ's and sports IQ's and skills have failed at EVERY sport because their athleticism is inferior and delusional parents like you use every excuse imaginable to rationalize away the fact (probably getting nasty towards the coach, parents and players) that ALL coaches in EVERY sport want the best athletes with the best skills. Basketball and football players athleticism in the USA are superior to soccer players in EVERY measurable metric. USMNT are rec level athletic talent when you compare them to USA basketball and football players. You seem to think that USMNT soccer players rec level athleticism will beat other nations elite athletes if just only our soccer IQ was equal to theirs. Your thinking is delusional.

LOLOLOL You speak of knowing"how someone is losing a debate". That is the number one sign. Having to explain the debate rules. Lololol. BTW, you in fact took the quote or of context. You were comparing female to male athletes. Male athletes being the superior athletes in every way. But I'm glad you don't know how to stay on topic.

Let me refresh you on the discussion: it was about the difference between technical (which morphed into SoccerIQ) vs. Size for developing players. And the fact remains that technical ability trumps size in soccer. That's fact. We're not talking agility (that is a given if your an athlete). We're not talking about athleticism (that's a given to be an athlete; hence the name). You tried to take it to a different angle to win an argument that wasn't being made. You should study your debate rules. Lol.

By everything you explained Messi wouldn't be on your team when he was 12. Neither would Iniesta, or Hazard, or countless other diminutive athletes. No one questioned whether they then needed to be good athletes or "agile" as you tried to explain about Messi. Of course they do. They are playing a SPORT at the highest level. One would hope they put in years of hard work and training. That was never in question. "they have to be good athletes. They are playing a sport. Not chess". no need to look up who made that quote.

[Unregistered]

It's interesting you are the person who has been proven ignorant on swimming sports knowledge, ignorant on basketball knowledge, and know I'll prove you wrong about hockey, and after you have been proven an ignoramus on multiple sports, we are to trust your knowledge on soccer? Give me a break. Wayne Gretzky had average size and speed and superior skills and hockey IQ. The reason he won 4 Cups with the Oilers is because he played with some of the fastest, quickest, biggest and greatest players in the league. Glenn Anderson, Paul Coffey, Grant Fuhr, Jari Kurri, Mark Messier, Glen Sather. All of those teammates of Gretzky are in the NHL Hall of Fame. By the way, Mark Messier won multiple NHL MVP's and captained two separate teams to Stanely Cup Championships without Gretzky. Messier won the Stanely Cup twice without Wayne Gretzky on two separate teams, the Oilers without Gretzky and the Rangers without Gretzky. Gretzky was great, but I would take Messier over Gretzky. Paul Coffey won the Stanely Cup without Wayne Gretzky on the Penguins. Glenn Anderson won the Stanely Cup without Wayne Gretzky on the Oilers. Grant Fuhr won the Stanely Cup without Wayne Gretzky on the Oilers. Jari Kurri won the Stanely Cup without Wayne Gretzky on the Oilers. When Michael Jordan left the Bulls, Pippen and Kukoc could not win a championship without him. Wayne Gretzky's greatness is a little overrated when his team proved that they did not need him to win championships after he left them. Gretzky needed them, more than they needed him. You can be slower and smaller like Gretzky was if you are surrounded by great athletes (Gretzky played with six Hall of Famers) who are fast, quick, big, strong, etc. Do you get it yet?

Now I see why you are off topic on every post. You are the typical American sports fan. The one that says "if our best athlete played soccer instead of basketball or football, we would be WC champs". You don't understand the development model of soccer. A really good athlete can pick up football and even basket ball in HS. That will never happen in soccer.
You are the guy that says if Lebron James chose soccer, he would be our Messi.

Hahaha. I also love the guy who writes "I trumped you on this or that argument". Lolol. Is that in your "anonymous internet forum debate handbook". Please go back to watching football. The sport where as long as you're fat or 300 pounds, you can play.

[Unregistered]

I have to step in about your 12 year old Messi, Hazard, and Iniesta comments. That is just stupid. There is actual video of them dominating youth games. Of course they would get picked by any coach; they were whooping ass. So your theory is crap. Messi was quicker then everybody and had more skill. He didn't need a B team to allow his skill to show after his body matured. He was always good. Any coach in any sport could show up and see that. You theory about him not getting a shot is wrong.

[Unregistered]

I have to step in about your 12 year old Messi, Hazard, and Iniesta comments. That is just stupid. There is actual video of them dominating youth games. Of course they would get picked by any coach; they were whooping ass. So your theory is crap. Messi was quicker then everybody and had more skill. He didn't need a B team to allow his skill to show after his body matured. He was always good. Any coach in any sport could show up and see that. You theory about him not getting a shot is wrong.

Tall kids are not by default faster and certainly not faster on the ball or making decisions.

Also, being a good athlete is not going to guarantee you can move a ball at your feet. The skills needed to be successful at soccer are made over years of training. All the other big American sports are hands based.

The problem with American soccer is not a lack of big kids... the problem is a lack of quality training at the youth club level. We hire babysitters and not trainers.

[Unregistered]

I agree with that but would add that the better athletes will have the better foot skill. They will generally learn quicker and have the more competitive attitude to improve. A lot of times the personality will create the athlete that maximizes his genetics.

[Unregistered]

I agree with that but would add that the better athletes will have the better foot skill. They will generally learn quicker and have the more competitive attitude to improve. A lot of times the personality will create the athlete that maximizes his genetics.

"Have the more competitive attitude " -- I'm going to interject in this interesting discussion to say that in my limited experience with my son's teams, I have seen some naturally gifted players. They tend to be strikers. But to a kid , NONE of them tried hard. If the ball wasn't within 10 feet of them, they made little effort to win it. I think they were just so good, they didn't have to work hard most of the time, so when they needed to they just didn't.

Obviously that's not a winning strategy, and these kids ended up not amounting to much.

A coach once told me he could pick out the girls who were going to play in college. It wasn't the most talented, it was the ones with the most drive.

[Unregistered]

LOLOLOL You speak of knowing"how someone is losing a debate". That is the number one sign. Having to explain the debate rules. Lololol. BTW, you in fact took the quote or of context. You were comparing female to male athletes. Male athletes being the superior athletes in every way. But I'm glad you don't know how to stay on topic.

Let me refresh you on the discussion: it was about the difference between technical (which morphed into SoccerIQ) vs. Size for developing players. And the fact remains that technical ability trumps size in soccer. That's fact. We're not talking agility (that is a given if your an athlete). We're not talking about athleticism (that's a given to be an athlete; hence the name). You tried to take it to a different angle to win an argument that wasn't being made. You should study your debate rules. Lol.

By everything you explained Messi wouldn't be on your team when he was 12. Neither would Iniesta, or Hazard, or countless other diminutive athletes. No one questioned whether they then needed to be good athletes or "agile" as you tried to explain about Messi. Of course they do. They are playing a SPORT at the highest level. One would hope they put in years of hard work and training. That was never in question. "they have to be good athletes. They are playing a sport. Not chess". no need to look up who made that quote.

I compared 20 something grown and fully developed females in the prime of their life to 16, 15, and 13 year old children. The USWNT has routinely scrimmaged and lost to these school aged children. Please tell me you understand the difference between Men, Women and children? This debate has been about my point that the USMNT athlete's north and south speed, lateral speed, fast twitch to slow twitch muscle fiber ratio is inferior when compared to our nation's best athletes who play football and basketball, and that in sports the best teams have the best athletes and that sports IQ and skills are secondary to that regardless of if that sport is soccer, basketball, football, etc. I know that your reading comprehension levels are challenged, but do try to keep up.

[Unregistered]

I have to step in about your 12 year old Messi, Hazard, and Iniesta comments. That is just stupid. There is actual video of them dominating youth games. Of course they would get picked by any coach; they were whooping ass. So your theory is crap. Messi was quicker then everybody and had more skill. He didn't need a B team to allow his skill to show after his body matured. He was always good. Any coach in any sport could show up and see that. You theory about him not getting a shot is wrong.

How many kids here in ODP dominate (to a certain extent) and don't get picked because they are small? I know for a fact that happens. No, not my kid, so no need for the sarcastic comment. My kid was picked. But I've seen many kids better than my own not get picked because of size. It happens. Many coaches here don't look at vision on the ball. They tend to look at the kid making 30-40 yard runs past players. Even if his touch has him eventually lose the ball, or take a mis-timed shot. The video of Messi shows him dominating by making the correct decisions. Barcelona specifically has all youth practice sessions concentrate on 90% passing and working combinations on very small-sided fields.

I think this debate is stupid. Anyone who knows vision and decision-making is more important in futbol than in most other sports. There is always an extreme to either end.

Power-lifting would be on the other opposite side of soccer. It takes extreme focus and concetration on proper technique. But there are not many variables during the actual lift that change how the athlete actually changes his technique. And for the power-lifting "experts" out there, no need to defend your sport. I know what it takes. I'm just using it as an example.

The ratio of decision-making in soccer is much higher than other sports. The argument has nothing to do with athleticism. Athleticism is always needed in all sports.

Adrian Peterson is ridiculously athletic, but I'll take an A.P. with a brain who can make split-second decisions quicker while running through the pocket than an A.P. who is dumb and just tries to plow through every time.

Its a simple concept to understand. And anyone who grew up playing soccer as well as other sports and who grew up playing in another country understands.