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    #16
    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
    Interesting thread.

    By U14, IMHO, if your coach is telling you that they are not concerned with wins and more concerned with development, then you're being conned. I coach a winning team. But now that my team is at the end of U16, most of the kids are losing interest in soccer and this will likely be our last year. So when do the kids get to win if their coach isn't concerned about winning at U14? U15 and U16 only?

    Here's a secret. Kids know if they are on a losing team. And so do the parents. And if a coach doesn't have a winning track record, then the parents will find a coach who does.

    Practice is for practice. But games are not for practice...they are for winning (or at least trying to win).

    A couple of posts earlier, a fellow mentioned how sad it was that some teams will boot the ball up the field and then defend with 9. While true, an equally sad thing is the team that constantly tries to play it out of the back and loses the ball. The team that uses such a formulaic approach to scoring that midfielders will elect not to take an obvious, open, shot at goal because they're so programmed to get the ball to the forwards that they don't recognize a scoring opportunity. And the coach is OK with that because this is development???

    At the college and professional level, teams play to win. If your kid is going to prepare to play at the level, they need to learn how to win. They need to train to win. They need to understand that winning may only happen if they take a chance up front. They need to understand that even in the Premier league, players will boot the ball up the field in a bid to win a game. Our kids need to learn what really works, and what doesn't. How else are they going to develop judgment appropriate for playing at the next level if they don't try to win, and sharpen their skills at recognizing opportunity?

    Save the practice for practice. Saturday is time to win.
    Best line in this mess: "But now that my team is at the end of U16, most of the kids are losing interest in soccer and this will likely be our last year." Really? With you screaming at them to PASS IT, or HAVE IT, or CLEAR IT, or WIDER in your quest to be a "winner", they didn't acquire a love and understanding of the game that will make them TREASURE the game? Especially now that they are physically mature enough to use the whole field? Forget about "why US soccer "development" lags behind the rest of the world"--this is why we can't even develop soccer fans.

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      We play on Sunday, Townie. Enjoy your last year of boot-n-scoot. Maybe you'll get into the mtocs this year.
      Last I checked, playing soccer on Sunday's is open to anyone...just have to write a check. I wouldn't be so quick to pat yourself on the back...you sound like an A-hole.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        We play on Sunday, Townie. Enjoy your last year of boot-n-scoot. Maybe you'll get into the mtocs this year.
        Last I checked, playing soccer on Sunday's is open to anyone...just have to write a check. I wouldn't be so quick to pat yourself on the back...you sound like an A-hole.

        Comment


          #19
          Boot it!!

          Comment


            #20
            Coach admits he coaches kids to quit the game by age 16, and uses it to defend his approach.

            Interesting.

            Maybe many kids start to realize how much fun it is to play with a ball vs. run after it for 90 minutes. If I want to play fetch, I'll get another Lab.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
              This is a good example of why US soccer "development" lags behind the rest of the world. A coach who obviously doesn't understand what development is or how to properly implement it. If you play all your games to win, 50% of your roster won't get much, if any play time. You'll start and play your "starters" and those on the bench will lose out on the opportunity to implement in a game, under pressure, what was learned in practice. You do this because every team has a skill and athleticism slant and you want to win, so you play your best. Do this at u13/14, when most players are making the adjustment to 11v11 and your bench falls behind further. Lavish your attention on those who had early growth spurts and you hurt those who could develop into strong players in high school.

              Focus on the win and players won't take chances as they will be afraid of making mistakes. Soccer is a creative game, not formulaic, but coaches distill the game into simple passing drills and never coach the players on what those passing drills really are: patterns that you may see in a game. The questionof whether to play direct or a more possessive build up style shouldn't be dictated by a desire to win, but by a players understanding of the field before them and where all the pieces are. Do we have a speed/skill advantage up front? Is the back line pushed up high to give us the space to run on the ball? Is there a weakness we can exploit in communication/skill/reactions? We don't teach our players these things and because it's "win at all costs", we don't allow them the flexability to test and be creative. We yell and bark when a player "makes a mistake". We don't build up confidence to allow them to learn, even in a game. We want results. Guess what? They aren't adults and they aren't professionals. They are learning, and holding them completely accountable to the result is the antithesis to true development.

              Too many coaches with a poor understanding of the game, youth development methodology and adolescent growth and development. Too focussed on results too early because it isn't about the players and the process to those coaches, it is about their record. My advice to parents is if the coach is focussed on winning games over playing all their players equally, yelling at players when they make mistakes instead of allowing players the opportunity to be creative and make mistakes in the process, especially under u14, where games are meaningless, find another coach/team/club.
              I know that you're trying to disagree with my statements, but in fact, we have a lot of common ground and we agree on more than we disagree.

              But to get this out of the way: You're making an assumption that when I coach, I don't distribute the playing time. That is not true, and is just your assumption. While we try to win, we do making the playing time equitable (not perfectly, but mostly) and we also try to play a clean game.

              With respect to the fear of making a mistake, I agree with you completely. However, where/and how it is implemented is where we disagree. The fear of making a mistake often comes from some of the better programs. I've watched teams from supposedly top-notch programs who were so focused on playing possession and properly setting up for a score in a manner that makes the coach happy that they missed scoring opportunities. IMHO, if a team works the ball up toward their opponent's goal and a player (whether midfielder or forward) finds themselves in a 1 vs. 1 situation against a defender AND a tactical advantage against the defender, they should go for it. I can't tell you how many times I've seen kids elect to pass the ball off in those situations because that's what they've been taught. At the upper levels in soccer, like professional, a good midfielder or forward will try to capitalize on that opportunity to make a point for their team. If us coaches really want to develop players for the next level, then we need to instill the players with the level of judgment that players at the next level have. Essentially, kids need to learn to play based on the instruction or "rules" that we give them. But they also need to understand when to break the rules. So I agree with your assessment that players need to be able to be creative and make mistakes. Maybe the midfielder needs to leave their position by a wide margin in rare instances where they can take a lot of space. Maybe passing isn't the answer for a forward if the defense is taking counter measures against a pass and not expecting the forward to take it in in a 1v1 situation.

              Comment


                #22
                Meh, doesn't really matter.

                He's coaching kids to quit the game by age 16 anyway. No sense in looking at future development, they've all moved on before they are even out of high school.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                  Meh, doesn't really matter.

                  He's coaching kids to quit the game by age 16 anyway. No sense in looking at future development, they've all moved on before they are even out of high school.
                  Not to defend this poster (too much) but playing opportunities seriously decline after 16. Towns end 'in house' programs at u15, high schools make cuts (and yes, good soccer players get cut from their hs teams), and kids start working part-time jobs and realizing they've got to get their sh*t together for college. So, it may not be Mr. "I coach winning teams" fault--though he doesn't help the situation. On the other hands, if kids were really allowed to develop a love of the game (which in my opinion requires that they play at least to physical maturity--past the small field manic action phase, past the "track with a ball" phase of undersized 11 year olds on a full size field) they would seek out playing opportunities--intramurals, Saturday morning kick-arounds, men's leagues. My friends who are real soccer fans (most, but not all, foreign-born) never played organized u-little soccer, but they played all the time with their friends and neighbors and continue to play as much as they can into middle age. I attribute this to the fact that they "got over the hump" of playing soccer at age 14 and learned how much fun the game can be when understand the game and they are physically able to let the ball do the work.
                  I also don't discount the fact that they enjoy the game more because no adult ever yelled at them on a soccer field because he cared more about winning than the player did.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                    Not to defend this poster (too much) but playing opportunities seriously decline after 16. Towns end 'in house' programs at u15, high schools make cuts (and yes, good soccer players get cut from their hs teams), and kids start working part-time jobs and realizing they've got to get their sh*t together for college. So, it may not be Mr. "I coach winning teams" fault--though he doesn't help the situation. On the other hands, if kids were really allowed to develop a love of the game (which in my opinion requires that they play at least to physical maturity--past the small field manic action phase, past the "track with a ball" phase of undersized 11 year olds on a full size field) they would seek out playing opportunities--intramurals, Saturday morning kick-arounds, men's leagues. My friends who are real soccer fans (most, but not all, foreign-born) never played organized u-little soccer, but they played all the time with their friends and neighbors and continue to play as much as they can into middle age. I attribute this to the fact that they "got over the hump" of playing soccer at age 14 and learned how much fun the game can be when understand the game and they are physically able to let the ball do the work.
                    I also don't discount the fact that they enjoy the game more because no adult ever yelled at them on a soccer field because he cared more about winning than the player did.
                    Thank you for that. This board is bi-polar. We either love what someone posts, or we vilify it. My perspective is not so black and white. The team I coach is falling apart because I coach a team that falls between the top and bottom tier. Some of my kids are moving on to pursue academics teams (Mock trial, debate, etc.) Some are trying to buy a car. Some are moving on to the highest level team that my club offers. While a U16 "elite" team falling apart before reaching U17 implies that there is no love for the game, a U16 rec team that still exists implies a great love for the game because they aren't necessarily in it for a scholarship. My team is more the latter than the former.

                    Not only is this board bi-polar, but most assume that "elite" soccer is the only kind of youth soccer played. There are lower levels, and kids having a blast at it. And I contend that those lower level kids want to win. Some of those kids who really figured out how to win have graduated to elite programs wound up being impact players. Even though they didn't spend as much time developing their skills, they compensated for that with soccer IQ until their skills caught up.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Still think if you spent as much time teaching them how to play the game vs. chasing a W in a youth league, they'd learn the nuances of the game. Which will, in turn, be passed to future generations, so they can build upon it.

                      If you want to chase W's, play darts.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        If players are developed in the right way u9-u12 they should be able to win later in the older age groups. Too often is coaches and parents sacrifice development for trophies.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          If players are developed in the right way u9-u12 they should be able to win later in the older age groups. Too often is coaches and parents sacrifice development for trophies.
                          Definitely true. Most parents' don't know any better, wouldn't know a good coach from bad. Winning=they're developing. Clubs and coaches do know better. But they're running a business and know that their customers (parents) think winning=development so they play into it as a business tactic. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, but wins shouldn't be used as the only measuring stick either

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                            Definitely true. Most parents' don't know any better, wouldn't know a good coach from bad. Winning=they're developing. Clubs and coaches do know better. But they're running a business and know that their customers (parents) think winning=development so they play into it as a business tactic. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, but wins shouldn't be used as the only measuring stick either
                            "It's not the will to win that matters...it's the will to prepare to win..." -BK

                            Comment


                              #29
                              The answer: BOTH!

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                                I know that you're trying to disagree with my statements, but in fact, we have a lot of common ground and we agree on more than we disagree.

                                But to get this out of the way: You're making an assumption that when I coach, I don't distribute the playing time. That is not true, and is just your assumption. While we try to win, we do making the playing time equitable (not perfectly, but mostly) and we also try to play a clean game.

                                With respect to the fear of making a mistake, I agree with you completely. However, where/and how it is implemented is where we disagree. The fear of making a mistake often comes from some of the better programs. I've watched teams from supposedly top-notch programs who were so focused on playing possession and properly setting up for a score in a manner that makes the coach happy that they missed scoring opportunities. IMHO, if a team works the ball up toward their opponent's goal and a player (whether midfielder or forward) finds themselves in a 1 vs. 1 situation against a defender AND a tactical advantage against the defender, they should go for it. I can't tell you how many times I've seen kids elect to pass the ball off in those situations because that's what they've been taught. At the upper levels in soccer, like professional, a good midfielder or forward will try to capitalize on that opportunity to make a point for their team. If us coaches really want to develop players for the next level, then we need to instill the players with the level of judgment that players at the next level have. Essentially, kids need to learn to play based on the instruction or "rules" that we give them. But they also need to understand when to break the rules. So I agree with your assessment that players need to be able to be creative and make mistakes. Maybe the midfielder needs to leave their position by a wide margin in rare instances where they can take a lot of space. Maybe passing isn't the answer for a forward if the defense is taking counter measures against a pass and not expecting the forward to take it in in a 1v1 situation.
                                New to the conversation but you sound like someone who should coach my son-

                                He's a middie and technically very strong, some of the sharpest foot skills his age (late 2005) but plays up to 2004. I don't want to mention to club and get off track, but now that he has had time to adapt to 11 v 11 I find he chooses the safe pass to keep possession when on the smaller field he was more comfortable taking more risks.

                                I asked him why he plays it safe and not try to beat his man one on one and says its what he's been told, his job is first and foremost not to lose the ball.

                                I think he's become almost 'robotic' in his passing, his first touch is so dependable, and he's so reliable, his teammates look for him. Most attacks go through him, so unless he can make a high % pass forward, he doesn't do it.

                                Comment

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