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U.S. vs. T&T: MNT vs. WNT

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    #16
    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
    No. Just no. In a nation of 320M people we have plenty of athletes. What we don't have is soccer players. We do a sh*t job of identifying and developing talent, honing skills, nurturing soccer IQ. Savvy players with any chance of making it professionally get out of the US as soon as they can.
    Well we have been doing a very bad job for many years on the men's side. We keep hearing about the renewed interest in soccer and this country is finally turning the corner in soccer development bust still not seeing the results on the men's side. Look, both the women's side and the men's side is using the same system, the same training, the same facilities, so why the different results? I would think that US Soccer is using the same method of identifying players but getting different results. So why? You are baking 2 cakes using the same oven , the same bowls, the same temperature but the ingredients are different. The cakes are going to be different.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      Well we have been doing a very bad job for many years on the men's side. We keep hearing about the renewed interest in soccer and this country is finally turning the corner in soccer development bust still not seeing the results on the men's side. Look, both the women's side and the men's side is using the same system, the same training, the same facilities, so why the different results? I would think that US Soccer is using the same method of identifying players but getting different results. So why? You are baking 2 cakes using the same oven , the same bowls, the same temperature but the ingredients are different. The cakes are going to be different.
      and then putting those cakes into a competition against very different cakes from around the world

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        #18
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        and then putting those cakes into a competition against very different cakes from around the world
        Precisely. On the men's side we're forever playing catch up and may never catch up because 1) the competition isn't static and also keeps improving and 2) we still aren't doing it right. The women started miles ahead of the rest but now the rest if the world is catching up quickly.

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          #19
          All of this b.s. about the women's side being better than the men's because other countries don't let women have teams is b.s. France started playing on the women's side when they formed their own league in 1919 and then re-established a league in the late 1960's , England in 1969, the rest of Europe pretty much the same - late 1960's 1970's.

          The whole idea that we are ahead is a myth - it might be true for some countries, but not Europe. Still the USWNT wins, the men can't. The reality is this - for years men's soccer was a "foreign" game and if you were a guy and played you were basically regarded as a big pussy. That is still the case in many parts of the country. Our best athletes won't play soccer. The scholarships and big money are all in football, baseball, and basketball. In this country Men's soccer is still a sport for small guys and second tier athletes.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
            All of this b.s. about the women's side being better than the men's because other countries don't let women have teams is b.s. France started playing on the women's side when they formed their own league in 1919 and then re-established a league in the late 1960's , England in 1969, the rest of Europe pretty much the same - late 1960's 1970's.

            The whole idea that we are ahead is a myth - it might be true for some countries, but not Europe. Still the USWNT wins, the men can't. The reality is this - for years men's soccer was a "foreign" game and if you were a guy and played you were basically regarded as a big pussy. That is still the case in many parts of the country. Our best athletes won't play soccer. The scholarships and big money are all in football, baseball, and basketball. In this country Men's soccer is still a sport for small guys and second tier athletes.
            Unlike in previous decades (where it was just about having the best athletes on the pitch), the USWNT has some of the most skilled players in the sport on the women's side. The current team is very technical relative to the rest of the world. When you look at players like Heath, Morgan and Rapino they are far from players who just run fast and kick hard. And the younger players like Pugh, Lavelle, Horan, etc, are much more skilled than previous generations. So even as the rest of the world has advanced there aren't many countries that can put such a large amount of skill and athleticism on the field at once. The depth in the US is impressive and largely thanks to having a professional women's league in place.

            It doesn't mean that this isn't the peak of US Women's soccer as more countries invest in their programs and enter the fray but it doesn't seem like the US will be challenged in the America's in the near future. Most of the best women's programs seem to be located in Europe and Asia.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
              Unlike in previous decades (where it was just about having the best athletes on the pitch), the USWNT has some of the most skilled players in the sport on the women's side. The current team is very technical relative to the rest of the world. When you look at players like Heath, Morgan and Rapino they are far from players who just run fast and kick hard. And the younger players like Pugh, Lavelle, Horan, etc, are much more skilled than previous generations. So even as the rest of the world has advanced there aren't many countries that can put such a large amount of skill and athleticism on the field at once. The depth in the US is impressive and largely thanks to having a professional women's league in place.

              It doesn't mean that this isn't the peak of US Women's soccer as more countries invest in their programs and enter the fray but it doesn't seem like the US will be challenged in the America's in the near future. Most of the best women's programs seem to be located in Europe and Asia.
              I generally agree with most of this. However the country that is coming on the strongest on the women's side is Canada. They have made a national committment to it that rivals the U.S. plus they completely overhauled their youth soccer set-up from the top down.

              There are a ton of women Canadian players popping up on elite college rosters in the U.S.

              No coincidence that it is U.S. vs. Canada in the CONCACAF Finals tomorrow night.

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                #22
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                I generally agree with most of this. However the country that is coming on the strongest on the women's side is Canada. They have made a national committment to it that rivals the U.S. plus they completely overhauled their youth soccer set-up from the top down.

                There are a ton of women Canadian players popping up on elite college rosters in the U.S.

                No coincidence that it is U.S. vs. Canada in the CONCACAF Finals tomorrow night.
                I think a big part of that "national commitment" is that their women players play in US College and NWSL. On the younger side they are producing a greater number of players capable to play in US, and then they get to feed them into the US systems.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                  Unlike in previous decades (where it was just about having the best athletes on the pitch), the USWNT has some of the most skilled players in the sport on the women's side. The current team is very technical relative to the rest of the world. When you look at players like Heath, Morgan and Rapino they are far from players who just run fast and kick hard. And the younger players like Pugh, Lavelle, Horan, etc, are much more skilled than previous generations. So even as the rest of the world has advanced there aren't many countries that can put such a large amount of skill and athleticism on the field at once. The depth in the US is impressive and largely thanks to having a professional women's league in place.

                  It doesn't mean that this isn't the peak of US Women's soccer as more countries invest in their programs and enter the fray but it doesn't seem like the US will be challenged in the America's in the near future. Most of the best women's programs seem to be located in Europe and Asia.
                  Now the women's side may be in jeopardy because egos are now involved in women's development. ECNL was started partly because the women's side was basically ignored by US Soccer. Now US Soccer shows up with a warning that the women's side is in fear of losing it's dominance because of basically, ECNL. So, in comes the white knight, no compromises, no willingness to work with the established product, to make the women's side better by how? Implementing a failed system on the men's side called DA. If men's DA has produced more than 3 world class soccer players from the thousands that flowed through their system, please point them out to me. Now the latest rumor about WDA is that they may move to single age groups next. This year the move was to add more dual games on weekends rather than going to the same general location on 2 separate weeks ( sounds like ECNL?). So now the development of the women's deprives teams from access to the best of the best because of false bravado. Meanwhile ICELAND, with population the size of the state of Georgia understand that unity and single mindedness is the way to prepare a county's best players to take on the world. If it is not broken don't fix it is not the Mantra when it comes to the women's side.

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                    #24
                    Small correction: Iceland has a fraction of Georgia's population. Iceland has the population of Hartford Connecticut, not an entire state (not even Rhode Island).

                    Do you think college coaching is doing a better job of preparing women for top level play (and the men's are not?)

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                      Now the women's side may be in jeopardy because egos are now involved in women's development. ECNL was started partly because the women's side was basically ignored by US Soccer. Now US Soccer shows up with a warning that the women's side is in fear of losing it's dominance because of basically, ECNL. So, in comes the white knight, no compromises, no willingness to work with the established product, to make the women's side better by how? Implementing a failed system on the men's side called DA. If men's DA has produced more than 3 world class soccer players from the thousands that flowed through their system, please point them out to me. Now the latest rumor about WDA is that they may move to single age groups next. This year the move was to add more dual games on weekends rather than going to the same general location on 2 separate weeks ( sounds like ECNL?). So now the development of the women's deprives teams from access to the best of the best because of false bravado. Meanwhile ICELAND, with population the size of the state of Georgia understand that unity and single mindedness is the way to prepare a county's best players to take on the world. If it is not broken don't fix it is not the Mantra when it comes to the women's side.
                      I totally agree. Unfortunately US Soccer is filled with complete morons. They don't care if a product is good or bad, or if a team wins or loses. Its all about making money off the sport. I predict with girls DA our team will ultimately end up where the men's team is - filled with players whose only qualification is that their parents paid excessive club fees for years. US Soccer has all but said you need to be a GDA player in the future to make the team. I wonder why we don't have some sort of competition to win the honor of representing the U.S. in the world cup - a playoff or something between the best girls programs - DA, ECNL, etc. and the winner gets to control the USNWT for the next five years. Seems like we have let too much power reside in a for profit corporation that does not respect our country or care about winning.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        Now the women's side may be in jeopardy because egos are now involved in women's development. ECNL was started partly because the women's side was basically ignored by US Soccer. Now US Soccer shows up with a warning that the women's side is in fear of losing it's dominance because of basically, ECNL. So, in comes the white knight, no compromises, no willingness to work with the established product, to make the women's side better by how? Implementing a failed system on the men's side called DA. If men's DA has produced more than 3 world class soccer players from the thousands that flowed through their system, please point them out to me. Now the latest rumor about WDA is that they may move to single age groups next. This year the move was to add more dual games on weekends rather than going to the same general location on 2 separate weeks ( sounds like ECNL?). So now the development of the women's deprives teams from access to the best of the best because of false bravado. Meanwhile ICELAND, with population the size of the state of Georgia understand that unity and single mindedness is the way to prepare a county's best players to take on the world. If it is not broken don't fix it is not the Mantra when it comes to the women's side.
                        ECNL works great when the rest of the world ignores women's soccer. Unfortunately, that's no longer the case. The US emphasis on games and early age specialization comprised by the pay for play model is simply not an effective development model compared to the European Academies. Now that those same Academies are training girls as well as boys, ECNL was a dead end road.

                        I like how people bash the DA model because it hasn't developed any world class players yet (though European clubs are signing US players now in record numbers) rather than try to argue that a model that emphasizes training and development over game time is superior in developing top soccer players.

                        ECNL is just another pay for play travel league that was intended to consolidate the top players together for the highest level of competition. Those clubs and that league never had furthering the development of the top national athletes as part of it's mission. USSF could see the huge player advantage the US has held for decades evaporating at the younger national teams so they stepped in.

                        ECNL is great for creating college level players and showcasing them for colleges to recruit but college soccer is not high level soccer. If you want the Women's team to start to become more like the men's (Top 30-50 in the world) then just keep on using the ECNL model and eventually we'll get there.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          Now the women's side may be in jeopardy because egos are now involved in women's development. ECNL was started partly because the women's side was basically ignored by US Soccer. Now US Soccer shows up with a warning that the women's side is in fear of losing it's dominance because of basically, ECNL. So, in comes the white knight, no compromises, no willingness to work with the established product, to make the women's side better by how? Implementing a failed system on the men's side called DA. If men's DA has produced more than 3 world class soccer players from the thousands that flowed through their system, please point them out to me. Now the latest rumor about WDA is that they may move to single age groups next. This year the move was to add more dual games on weekends rather than going to the same general location on 2 separate weeks ( sounds like ECNL?). So now the development of the women's deprives teams from access to the best of the best because of false bravado. Meanwhile ICELAND, with population the size of the state of Georgia understand that unity and single mindedness is the way to prepare a county's best players to take on the world. If it is not broken don't fix it is not the Mantra when it comes to the women's side.
                          How is Iceland Women's team doing? With all those great coaches and national unity in terms of direction . . . shouldn't they be excelling also? Are girls just made to cheer the boys teams and not allowed to play?

                          Let's not compare the most popular sport in a European country with the 4th or 5th most popular sport in the US. The US has some of the best athletes in the world but they aren't evenly distributed to all available sports. If Golf was the most popular sport in the US I can almost guarantee that most of the top 300 US golfers wouldn't be in the top 300 and would probably be in another line of work.

                          In contrast, Basketball and Soccer are the two most popular sports for girls in the US. Guess who dominates those sports on the world stage? Coincidence?

                          Get this, Cricket is the second most popular sport in the world yet our national cricket team also isn't anything to write home about. Are you seeing a pattern here yet?

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                            #28
                            Whatever country can identify and develop the most elite 20 or so national players shall have a shot at winning World Cup. Enjoy the game.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                              Whatever country can identify and develop the most elite 20 or so national players shall have a shot at winning World Cup. Enjoy the game.
                              Not necessarily, it is all relative. A country with a population of 100 million could identify 20 of their top 100 players to compete compared to a country of 5-10 million who needs to hit on most of their true top 20 talents to field an equivalent team.

                              There is always random luck. The smaller country might end up having the best player in the world at the time. The smaller country might have a larger percentage of their children playing the sport. The smaller country might have institutions that promote a sport and support athletes while the larger country doesn't. The physical attributes of the smaller country's population could be superior to the larger country's . . . at least in that particular sport. Etc.

                              But all things being equal, it would be a simple numbers game and over time a larger population would have the advantage and a larger margin of error.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                                ECNL works great when the rest of the world ignores women's soccer. Unfortunately, that's no longer the case. The US emphasis on games and early age specialization comprised by the pay for play model is simply not an effective development model compared to the European Academies. Now that those same Academies are training girls as well as boys, ECNL was a dead end road.

                                I like how people bash the DA model because it hasn't developed any world class players yet (though European clubs are signing US players now in record numbers) rather than try to argue that a model that emphasizes training and development over game time is superior in developing top soccer players.

                                ECNL is just another pay for play travel league that was intended to consolidate the top players together for the highest level of competition. Those clubs and that league never had furthering the development of the top national athletes as part of it's mission. USSF could see the huge player advantage the US has held for decades evaporating at the younger national teams so they stepped in.

                                ECNL is great for creating college level players and showcasing them for colleges to recruit but college soccer is not high level soccer. If you want the Women's team to start to become more like the men's (Top 30-50 in the world) then just keep on using the ECNL model and eventually we'll get there.
                                This is very humorous - criticizing ECNL. The vast majority of the younger key players that contributed to last night's dominating US WNT performance played in what league? ECNL. USSF is trying to fix something that was not broken!

                                FRISCO, Texas. (Oct. 17, 2018) – The U.S. Women’s National Team finished a perfect 5-0-0 run and defeated Canada 2-0 in the 2018 Concacaf Women’s Championship title game on Wednesday night. It was the sixth regional title for the USA, which outscored opponents 26-0 in the tournament.

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