The environment is broken – let’s fix it

[Unregistered]

It is not that they call themselves elite, it is that they are there right next to the true elite player sucking up their resources and dumbing things down. These families are fueling the arms race that club soccer has become. When you get right down to it no one needs half of the stuff people sell here on TS to get to Bucknell or Colgate, they just have to be good soccer players and have a desire to go there. The truth is this environment is actually making harder for those kids to reach that goal because it is flooded with mediocrity and they end up battling against hundreds of other kids who are not really talented enough to play at that level but who clog those coaches email thinking they are.

To answer your specific question, yes I do believe these people have negatively impacted my daughter's development. Every time I go to a keeper workout and watch some random kid who shows up every third practice make a improper service in a drill I know that is impeding her progress. I can quite literally point to thousands upon thousands of wasted training hours because of stuff like that. In our case what that forced us to do is go off and do whole lot of extra work outside of the club environment to compensate.

What you don't seem to get though is that I don't really care whether that random kid is actually there next to my kid at all. The only thing I actually care about is whether or not they are pushing to reach their goal just as hard my daughter is pushing to reach hers. I respect anyone who is busting their butt regardless of their level of talent. My issue is with the posers who show up and don't do the work they need to do to get better. What I am seeing is this environment is bogged down with them.

You need to become friends with all the best players' parents. Get together and decide to play together. It's what we did and we couldn't be happier and our kids are becoming absolute dynamos.

[beentheredonethat]

BTDT, excuse my ignorance, but do you know how other team oriented youth sports "development" programs are structured? I know individual sports have wide variations but I am curious about team ones.

Yes I do. I have coached basketball for many years. Because that game is so dependent upon execution, one of the basic issues with training a basketball team is you cannot advance the training topic until the last player on the team has grasped what you are trying to teach. The ramifications of all that I am talking about are having a huge impact on that type of team sport because it has slowed the development of basketball IQ to almost a snails pace and without basketball IQ you can't build execution. The players can't read the situation and react properly to it so they play at a very rudimentary level. One of the real big ramifications of what is going on is kids no longer understand healthy competition so you can't actually use the game to teach. For example try teaching the nuances of a pick and roll when no one understands why they might want to forcibly take position away from another player. Too many kids today just don't get why they would want to out position another player to score a point so the whole exercise just becomes a choreographed routine and a waste of time. The kids end up either trying to kill each other or they go the opposite way and don't want to even go near each other. In either event the nuances of positioning and timing get completely lost. I see a lot of similarities in soccer.

[perspective]

It is not that they call themselves elite, it is that they are there right next to the true elite player sucking up their resources and dumbing things down. These families are fueling the arms race that club soccer has become. When you get right down to it no one needs half of the stuff people sell here on TS to get to Bucknell or Colgate, they just have to be good soccer players and have a desire to go there. The truth is this environment is actually making harder for those kids to reach that goal because it is flooded with mediocrity and they end up battling against hundreds of other kids who are not really talented enough to play at that level but who clog those coaches email thinking they are.

To answer your specific question, yes I do believe these people have negatively impacted my daughter's development. Every time I go to a keeper workout and watch some random kid who shows up every third practice make a improper service in a drill I know that is impeding her progress. I can quite literally point to thousands upon thousands of wasted training hours because of stuff like that. In our case what that forced us to do is go off and do whole lot of extra work outside of the club environment to compensate.

What you don't seem to get though is that I don't really care whether that random kid is actually there next to my kid at all. The only thing I actually care about is whether or not they are pushing to reach their goal just as hard my daughter is pushing to reach hers. I respect anyone who is busting their butt regardless of their level of talent. My issue is with the posers who show up and don't do the work they need to do to get better. What I am seeing is this environment is bogged down with them.

Very confusing post. Not at all clear who you are talking about. Do you mean the players on your team who will only end up playing high level D3? Do you mean you'd be OK with kids on your team who won't go beyond being a sub on the high school varsity squad as long as they are truly "busting their butt"? You see to say not much is needed to play at a Bucknell or Colgate but then you say those very kids are being held back by even more mediocre kids. Clogging the coach's emails? Are you serious about that as a major problem as part of your thesis?

What do you want the player to do who is not quite elite and is sucking up the resources of the truly elite? Do you not want a team fielded? Do you want that kid to just quit? Do you expect pretty good (but not off-the-charts special) players to actually turn down roster spots when offered? Is a club really evil for offering a spot to the next best player available, or should they simply close up shop because in the grand scheme they are actually mediocre in some way?

[perspective]

"Don't mistake activity with achievement" John Wooden

Just because you post constantly does not mean you have "contributed" greatly to this forum. It can easily be said that your rants and tangents have derailed many more threads than you have contributed to. You are under the delusion that your opinion matters more than others. You also seem to have an unusual amount of time to dedicate to this. What are your credentials? Why is your opinion so valuable?

Forget to sign in?

Please, I see these easy comebacks, but I never see anyone indicate what seminal points I have derailed. What point exactly really is crying out for further airing that I have derailed? A disagreement with a post or a challenge to explain how someone isn't being contradictory and duplicitous isn't a derailment.

As for time, I seem to have about as much as you do.

As for credentials...better than most. And I typically don't express opinions in the form of ramming ideas down someone's throat. I challenge opinions, challenge posting that seems grossly unfair and highly agenda-motivated, and I offer information and my experiences where I can. The vast majority here, for example, have appreciated and thanked me for my college and conference summaries.

[beentheredonethat]

Very confusing post. Not at all clear who you are talking about. Do you mean the players on your team who will only end up playing high level D3? Do you mean you'd be OK with kids on your team who won't go beyond being a sub on the high school varsity squad as long as they are truly "busting their butt"? You see to say not much is needed to play at a Bucknell or Colgate but then you say those very kids are being held back by even more mediocre kids. Clogging the coach's emails? Are you serious about that as a major problem as part of your thesis?

What do you want the player to do who is not quite elite and is sucking up the resources of the truly elite? Do you not want a team fielded? Do you want that kid to just quit? Do you expect pretty good (but not off-the-charts special) players to actually turn down roster spots when offered? Is a club really evil for offering a spot to the next best player available, or should they simply close up shop because in the grand scheme they are actually mediocre in some way?

I have never had the beef against D3 soccer that you imagine. I just don't believe that you need any of this craziness to land there. I honestly believe in the statement Bill Parcells once made that players are what they are. The amount of talent defines the player. From where I sit as long as you are busting your butt to be the best D3 player you can be I have no issue. I respect that because they are controlling the one thing they can control in all of this, their effort. Talent on the other hand really isn't controllable because it is based more on genetics. You either have talent or you don't and no amount of effort is going to change that. Like they say, you can't coach speed. Put another way, as far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with being a step slow as long as you run hard.

The point I was trying to make is the concept of team is essentially artificial because we are grouping players on the basis of age not ability. I don't care whether you find this snobby or not the fact that you have D1 and D3 athletes on the same team is a problem. The only ones that benefit from that situation are the D3 athletes because they have the D1 athletes there to push them. Who is pushing the D1 athletes? Do honestly think the D3 athletes are actually pushing the D1 athletes? No they are not. They are not good enough to push them and there are way to many people involved in all of this that think they do. That is big part of the problem that I am talking about. There is no objectivity. All that I am basically saying is the levelling should not be a choice, it should be earned based upon ability. There is no disrespect intended here. All that I am saying is a first grader is a first grader and a second grader is a second grader. Just like in school you wouldn't want to blend those classes together, you don't want to blend levels of player together.

[beentheredonethat]

Forget to sign in?

Please, I see these easy comebacks, but I never see anyone indicate what seminal points I have derailed. What point exactly really is crying out for further airing that I have derailed? A disagreement with a post or a challenge to explain how someone isn't being contradictory and duplicitous isn't a derailment.

As for time, I seem to have about as much as you do.

As for credentials...better than most. And I typically don't express opinions in the form of ramming ideas down someone's throat. I challenge opinions, challenge posting that seems grossly unfair and highly agenda-motivated, and I offer information and my experiences where I can. The vast majority here, for example, have appreciated and thanked me for my college and conference summaries.

Nope, that wasn't me

[perspective]

I have never had the beef against D3 soccer that you imagine. I just don't believe that you need any of this craziness to land there. I honestly believe in the statement Bill Parcells once made that players are what they are. The amount of talent defines the player. From where I sit as long as you are busting your butt to be the best D3 player you can be I have no issue. I respect that because they are controlling the one thing they can control in all of this, their effort. Talent on the other hand really isn't controllable because it is based more on genetics. You either have talent or you don't and no amount of effort is going to change that. Like they say, you can't coach speed. Put another way, as far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with being a step slow as long as you run hard.

The point I was trying to make is the concept of team is essentially artificial because we are grouping players on the basis of age not ability. I don't care whether you find this snobby or not the fact that you have D1 and D3 athletes on the same team is a problem. The only ones that benefit from that situation are the D3 athletes because they have the D1 athletes there to push them. Who is pushing the D1 athletes? Do honestly think the D3 athletes are actually pushing the D1 athletes? No they are not. They are not good enough to push them and there are way to many people involved in all of this that think they do. That is big part of the problem that I am talking about. There is no objectivity. All that I am basically saying is the levelling should not be a choice, it should be earned based upon ability. There is no disrespect intended here. All that I am saying is a first grader is a first grader and a second grader is a second grader. Just like in school you wouldn't want to blend those classes together, you don't want to blend levels of player together.

Yeah, I get your point. You can try to dance around the disrespect but it's loud and clear. You appreciate the very hard worker, but you also want her in the right class. I AGREE WITH YOU. The thing is the best players do tend to go to the best teams and the best training environment available. You still just don't think those kids are good enough or dedicated enough, like a year ago when you not so secretly were getting on your own team members for not working hard enough. I don't know about the NEFC Elite teams (as you have certainly made points about their ratio of national and college players to the competition) but certainly there have been Stars and Scorps teams where the majority of the teams went D1 and only a couple went D3.

Do you want all of the top teams altered? Just one team? Just an allowance for a few kids to play up when talent indicates that? You haven't answered how in the world all this can be so frustrating and annoying to you, especially as you sit at the top of the mountain.

[perspective]

I have never had the beef against D3 soccer that you imagine. I just don't believe that you need any of this craziness to land there. I honestly believe in the statement Bill Parcells once made that players are what they are. The amount of talent defines the player. From where I sit as long as you are busting your butt to be the best D3 player you can be I have no issue. I respect that because they are controlling the one thing they can control in all of this, their effort. Talent on the other hand really isn't controllable because it is based more on genetics. You either have talent or you don't and no amount of effort is going to change that. Like they say, you can't coach speed. Put another way, as far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with being a step slow as long as you run hard.

The point I was trying to make is the concept of team is essentially artificial because we are grouping players on the basis of age not ability. I don't care whether you find this snobby or not the fact that you have D1 and D3 athletes on the same team is a problem. The only ones that benefit from that situation are the D3 athletes because they have the D1 athletes there to push them. Who is pushing the D1 athletes? Do honestly think the D3 athletes are actually pushing the D1 athletes? No they are not. They are not good enough to push them and there are way to many people involved in all of this that think they do. That is big part of the problem that I am talking about. There is no objectivity. All that I am basically saying is the levelling should not be a choice, it should be earned based upon ability. There is no disrespect intended here. All that I am saying is a first grader is a first grader and a second grader is a second grader. Just like in school you wouldn't want to blend those classes together, you don't want to blend levels of player together.

And btw, you DID have a beef about D3. We argued about it! Ad nauseum....of course before your kid moved to D3. You were relentless of the payout and "it's a job" and all the rest and now that you suggest the top 5 schools in the country aren't giving full rides you've changed your tune. And you seem to think a kid can just play high school and walk into a D3 stating lineup. There are plenty of DAP kids sitting on D3 benches or fighting for their lives (and working very hard) to get time. You're going against your own mantra...which is to say that it is far more difficult to be a good D3 player at a good D3 than most think, and of course even more difficult for D1.

[Unregistered]

This is the kind of post, frequent on the site and akin to what btdt called the twitter style of posting, genuinely does confuse me. "Best for the forum as a whole"??? In what way? What is happening in the forum that is so outstanding that ANYONE here could be getting in the way? This is the kind of post that brings btdt and I together. I think his posting is dangerous and he's worn out some themes he has perseverated on for years, and I wish he would offer some new content and new insights (which I think he sort of is trying to do in this thread), but at least he offers something. I've offered a ton of content on the site. As I've asked before with no replies, please direct us to your actual contributions.

I truly appreciate when you both sign in because I can easily identify and skip your posts. It reduces the clutter, the white noise you both emit, the minutia you both entrench yourselves over.

There is nothing more boring than know-it-all dads debating the life challenges of a small fraction of an already minute population in girls soccer.

[Unregistered]

Now we're getting somewhere, because you are gradually being more honest about what really irks YOU. You really don't like people being at a level that generally gets described as a top level if they aren't at a level to back up their presence there....

... So why so angry and so full of criticisms and complaints? That's what you never address. Maybe you are not a self-reflective person. But the real curiosity is the psychological one....why you are so torn up about all this stuff...why this becomes an affront TO YOU???

The answers are obvious through his words and major themes. In his view, "this environment" has added far more cost, travel, inefficiency, distraction, and pretenders than is necessary for kids with elite potential and work ethic. If everyone would stay in their lane, real "destination teams" would reemerge; his kids could have migrated to such teams; and the vast majority of other kids could have had their recreational experiences elsewhere.

After spending so much seemingly gratuitous time, energy, money, and angst--which have yielded disparate results that probably could have been bettered via far less investment--he is frustrated and angry about what the system and other (clueless) parents have done. To this extent, from a deeply self-interested orientation that he often confuses as altruism, he is sincere about wanting to change the environment and the past remains alive.

[Unregistered]

I have never had the beef against D3 soccer that you imagine. I just don't believe that you need any of this craziness to land there. I honestly believe in the statement Bill Parcells once made that players are what they are. The amount of talent defines the player. From where I sit as long as you are busting your butt to be the best D3 player you can be I have no issue. I respect that because they are controlling the one thing they can control in all of this, their effort. Talent on the other hand really isn't controllable because it is based more on genetics. You either have talent or you don't and no amount of effort is going to change that. Like they say, you can't coach speed. Put another way, as far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with being a step slow as long as you run hard.

The point I was trying to make is the concept of team is essentially artificial because we are grouping players on the basis of age not ability. I don't care whether you find this snobby or not the fact that you have D1 and D3 athletes on the same team is a problem. The only ones that benefit from that situation are the D3 athletes because they have the D1 athletes there to push them. Who is pushing the D1 athletes? Do honestly think the D3 athletes are actually pushing the D1 athletes? No they are not. They are not good enough to push them and there are way to many people involved in all of this that think they do. That is big part of the problem that I am talking about. There is no objectivity. All that I am basically saying is the levelling should not be a choice, it should be earned based upon ability. There is no disrespect intended here. All that I am saying is a first grader is a first grader and a second grader is a second grader. Just like in school you wouldn't want to blend those classes together, you don't want to blend levels of player together.

I am an outside observer and I truly don't get you. A first grader is a first grader and a second grader is a second grader due to AGE. If a first grader has the abilities of a second grader or a fifth grader for that matter it is incumbent upon the parents and the school to find ways to challenge that child. So your daughter was a first grader with fifth grade abilities and you had to use your resources to have her be challenged. Well too bad for you. Your situation has nothing to do with the vast majority of kids that play in organized sports. You want to up end the whole system so that it suits your particular requirements.

[Unregistered]

Saw this posted on Facebook and immediately thought of these two. Haha, just picturing these actors reenacting the BTDT/Perspective posts would be hilarious if you ask me!

http://blog.foxsoccer.com/post/75605...scom:FOXSoccer

Good one!

Just my opinion, of the two, Perspective is definitely the more annoying of the two.

[perspective]

btdt, I think the following may be the most insulting aspects of your narrative...

1) The idea that most of us don't know who we or our kids are. A few don't and we all know those parents, but that's not the majority. Most figure out and place their kids appropriately and assess outcomes accordingly.

2) That anyone not destined to be the equivalent of a NBA hall of famer shouldn't be in the game at all...is a drag on the system...or is a poser, someone who wants to level everything down to make sure his or her kids gets a medal that isn't deserved.

3) That there are tons and tons of mediocre players clogging up the system when even if one includes D3 a very small % of participants in club or "elite" soccer end up playing in college.

I don't want YOUR experience "dumbed down." I want your kid to have every opportunity to maximize her potential and to reach every possible height. As fans of the game we all want that and would love to see your kid excelling on the biggest of stages. Where we differ is that I don't expect the local soccer scene to provide the answer. If I had a kid in that sphere I wouldn't be expecting the local scene to ahve anything to do with it.

[beentheredonethat]

And btw, you DID have a beef about D3. We argued about it! Ad nauseum....of course before your kid moved to D3. You were relentless of the payout and "it's a job" and all the rest and now that you suggest the top 5 schools in the country aren't giving full rides you've changed your tune. And you seem to think a kid can just play high school and walk into a D3 stating lineup. There are plenty of DAP kids sitting on D3 benches or fighting for their lives (and working very hard) to get time. You're going against your own mantra...which is to say that it is far more difficult to be a good D3 player at a good D3 than most think, and of course even more difficult for D1.

Revisionist history on your part. It is like this argument, you just refused to take what I was saying at face value and kept trying to infuse your chip on your shoulder into it. As far as I was concerned the discussion was about the path so many in this environment take to get to D3. It is overkill.

Clearly you think that calling a first grader a first grader is akin to an insult and what you really want is the second graders down with the first graders so you can basically elevate the prestige of your kids accomplishment. It got you now. You can rail on all that you want it is not going to change how I feel about this so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

[perspective]

Revisionist history on your part. It is like this argument, you just refused to take what I was saying at face value and kept trying to infuse your chip on your shoulder into it. As far as I was concerned the discussion was about the path so many in this environment take to get to D3. It is overkill.

Clearly you think that calling a first grader a first grader is akin to an insult and what you really want is the second graders down with the first graders so you can basically elevate the prestige of your kids accomplishment. It got you now. You can rail on all that you want it is not going to change how I feel about this so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

You have a poor memory. I can re-post your posts from several years ago to jog your recall if you like. Your argument primarily was about money....and by money not primarily the costs of getting to D3 but the lack of pay for playing, the stupidity of playing for no money when one's time could be better spent studying, and the "it's a job" jag.

You keep distorting my views because you have no idea what they are. You'll say anything. I'm ecstatic about our situation. My kid exceeded expectations, never asked for any favors that you suggest. One would think that you would be happy, but actually you seem like you have the chip.