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    #16
    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
    Your kid tries out for a team and is selected. The club charges you a lot of money. You are the customer and the club is the seller. The club has now sold something to you and owes you/your child a complete service and guarantee to satisfy.

    Unless, the contract (verbal or written) specifically says that playtime will not be equal and/or earned only, then the club owes each and every player selected for that team equal playtime....since each family pays the same amount i.e. get the same guarantee and quality service.

    One can addend that if the player is not showing up to practices or being disruptive at practices then, perhaps, they are not holding up their end of the bargain.

    Practices are important and games are equally so. For a club to state that player development is excellent regardless of playtime is, for the lay person, fraud. Any coach knows that if the goal of the player is to be able to play in games, then they need to play in games for a significant amount of time. After all, it takes more than 5,10, or even 20 minutes to get into a rhythm and get touches of the ball.

    To not play players in games is, at best, discouraging. Kids get to the fork in the road and, while some work harder others might be so discouraged that they are afraid to play for fear of making a mistake and getting less playtime.

    The coach and club have to be supportive and encouraging while providing opportunity. If you, as a coach, are not going to be able to do that then don't place the kid on the team. Roster fewer players so that all can get on the field for significant periods of time (i.e. 50% or more).

    Once the money is paid and the contract is signed then it is the club/coach that has to make the guarantee.
    Good points. And I agree. The problem starts with clubs that try to have large rosters. And we know why they do that. The roster should have about 1.5x the starting lineup. That way, everyone plays at least half the game and the coach has discretion to play others more. If a club puts out a roster with more than 1.5x, the chances of playing at least a half go farther down. One of the first questions a parent should ask when the coach first brings up their playing time philosophy is "how many kids on the roster?" The answer will tell you how easy or difficult it will be for the coach to implement their plan.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
      Good points. And I agree. The problem starts with clubs that try to have large rosters. And we know why they do that. The roster should have about 1.5x the starting lineup. That way, everyone plays at least half the game and the coach has discretion to play others more. If a club puts out a roster with more than 1.5x, the chances of playing at least a half go farther down. One of the first questions a parent should ask when the coach first brings up their playing time philosophy is "how many kids on the roster?" The answer will tell you how easy or difficult it will be for the coach to implement their plan.
      Agreed. This was something we asked about when moving to the McClub. We were assured that the team would have 18 players and our kid would get minutes. By August they changed their tune, saying the team would have 22 players and they would be rotating out. I couldn't believe we left a top club for that disaster.

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        #18
        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
        Agreed. This was something we asked about when moving to the McClub. We were assured that the team would have 18 players and our kid would get minutes. By August they changed their tune, saying the team would have 22 players and they would be rotating out. I couldn't believe we left a top club for that disaster.
        Which is why that will never, ever be in your contract. Contracts are purposely very vague to protect the club, not the paying customer.

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          #19
          Uh everyone is aware that top level teams over u12 have no where near equal playing time. That is completely assumed. There is no "contract" walk worth your feet the bottom of the roster is easily replaced hence the business model is to keep the top of the roster happy. Most of the top 5 will be upset when and if they come off the field. Middle 12 battling for time. Bottom 5 token minutes Wake up and smell the roses.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
            Uh everyone is aware that top level teams over u12 have no where near equal playing time. That is completely assumed. There is no "contract" walk worth your feet the bottom of the roster is easily replaced hence the business model is to keep the top of the roster happy. Most of the top 5 will be upset when and if they come off the field. Middle 12 battling for time. Bottom 5 token minutes Wake up and smell the roses.
            There's also no guarantee in a contract that studs will play an entire game..

            the OP asked about PT for u9-u11. I totally agree over U12 or so it shouldn't be equal but earned. However, a coach still owes it to all his players (not just the top ones) to try and develop them. Token minutes here and there won't aid in development. If the coach thinks they're un-developable (is that a word?) then he shouldn't have taken them in the first place. There's ways to manage a roster/rotations so that players can get more than 5 minutes without sacrificing too much.

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              #21
              So, by way of example, if a team is playing a sixty minute game 9 v. 9. you'd have eight field players dividing a total of 480 minutes of playing time. With a roster of 13 field players (excluding the goalie) that comes out to an average of about 37 minutes a game per kid.

              On some teams you'll see a 1/3 of the roster playing 50 minutes, another 1/3 getting the average and the bottom third getting 20ish minutes a game.

              On other teams you'll see the vast majority of the kids play in the 35-40 minute range.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                So, by way of example, if a team is playing a sixty minute game 9 v. 9. you'd have eight field players dividing a total of 480 minutes of playing time. With a roster of 13 field players (excluding the goalie) that comes out to an average of about 37 minutes a game per kid.

                On some teams you'll see a 1/3 of the roster playing 50 minutes, another 1/3 getting the average and the bottom third getting 20ish minutes a game.

                On other teams you'll see the vast majority of the kids play in the 35-40 minute range.
                Oh Jesus Christ, another one of those stopwatch parents!

                Comment


                  #23
                  no stop watch in this family. my kids play full game or we move on. can't develop on the bench

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                    no stop watch in this family. my kids play full game or we move on. can't develop on the bench
                    agree - in our case it doesn't have to be a full game, but if there's not substantial minutes in games, then your child is NOT developing, I don't care how good the trainings are. Not worth your (or your child's) time, and certainly not worth your hard-earned dollars. The nice thing about the Northeast is that there are typically several options all within a relatively sane driving distance, so vote with your feet and your pocketbook. And shame on any club that takes a child only to sit them for most of the games

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Yes there is a contract

                      The club advertises that they offer the best development and the contract says that the club will develop. If you take that to a court, the verdict would be based on the definition of development and a coach would be hard pressed to ever say that playtime in games was not a significant part of development.

                      Yes...keep the stopwatch out and make sure your kid, or, if you are the coach, the kids get significant playing time.
                      Yes...the OP did highlight a younger age where this is an absolute necessity.
                      However, this applies to all ages. Unless you can tell me that physical, mental, and skill development plateau at age 12 then playtime has to be go until at least age 15/16. Personally, I would even go beyond since development goes beyond that. As important, at this age is, assuming that the kid might want to play college ball, that coaches won't see you if you are on the bench and you don't get much of a rhythm or a chance to touch the ball if you are in for only 5-15 minutes.

                      There is also the concept of quality minutes. Development occurs when you are part of the game. If you are just running around and not getting any or many touches on the ball then you are not gaining much development. In fact, the one, especially at the younger ages, who developes most, while annoying everyone else, is the ball hog. This is the one who ultimately has the best skill.

                      Quality playtime is a must. Any coach/club who tells you otherwise and practices otherwise is a con-man...or woman. Rosters that have 20-23 for a 11 v 11 game is a joke unless they are playing 30+ games and there is a guarantee that your kid will start more than 30-40% and play more than 40% of any given game. The rules of the DAP are stupid!! 'Minimum starts of 20% and once you are subbed out you are out'. To hide behind the guise that they are readying the players for professional play is a cop-out. For 99% of the players college is the highest level they reach and subbing is pretty liberal.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        The club advertises that they offer the best development and the contract says that the club will develop. If you take that to a court, the verdict would be based on the definition of development and a coach would be hard pressed to ever say that playtime in games was not a significant part of development.

                        Yes...keep the stopwatch out and make sure your kid, or, if you are the coach, the kids get significant playing time.
                        Yes...the OP did highlight a younger age where this is an absolute necessity.
                        However, this applies to all ages. Unless you can tell me that physical, mental, and skill development plateau at age 12 then playtime has to be go until at least age 15/16. Personally, I would even go beyond since development goes beyond that. As important, at this age is, assuming that the kid might want to play college ball, that coaches won't see you if you are on the bench and you don't get much of a rhythm or a chance to touch the ball if you are in for only 5-15 minutes.

                        There is also the concept of quality minutes. Development occurs when you are part of the game. If you are just running around and not getting any or many touches on the ball then you are not gaining much development. In fact, the one, especially at the younger ages, who developes most, while annoying everyone else, is the ball hog. This is the one who ultimately has the best skill.

                        Quality playtime is a must. Any coach/club who tells you otherwise and practices otherwise is a con-man...or woman. Rosters that have 20-23 for a 11 v 11 game is a joke unless they are playing 30+ games and there is a guarantee that your kid will start more than 30-40% and play more than 40% of any given game. The rules of the DAP are stupid!! 'Minimum starts of 20% and once you are subbed out you are out'. To hide behind the guise that they are readying the players for professional play is a cop-out. For 99% of the players college is the highest level they reach and subbing is pretty liberal.
                        With three players we've been at several clubs over the years. I've never seen a contract that says they will develop my kids. They're simple one page affairs where the text doesn't even take up half the page. Normally they lay out how many practices/week and tourneys there are (without even any specifics on tourneys in case they don't get admitted to certain ones). Often there is an expectation agreement that our kids will always be at events and must notify the coach if they won't be. Oh, and it lays out when they expect my payments.

                        Short of violating those terms you're going to have a hard time taking a club to court for "lack of development." Beyond the issue of trying to prove a vague and subjective term, the contracts are intentionally vague to protect the clubs from just such an accusation. Best thing you can do if your kid isn't developing is walk away and then trash them on TS :)

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          The club advertises that they offer the best development and the contract says that the club will develop. If you take that to a court, the verdict would be based on the definition of development and a coach would be hard pressed to ever say that playtime in games was not a significant part of development.

                          Yes...keep the stopwatch out and make sure your kid, or, if you are the coach, the kids get significant playing time.
                          Yes...the OP did highlight a younger age where this is an absolute necessity.
                          However, this applies to all ages. Unless you can tell me that physical, mental, and skill development plateau at age 12 then playtime has to be go until at least age 15/16. Personally, I would even go beyond since development goes beyond that. As important, at this age is, assuming that the kid might want to play college ball, that coaches won't see you if you are on the bench and you don't get much of a rhythm or a chance to touch the ball if you are in for only 5-15 minutes.

                          There is also the concept of quality minutes. Development occurs when you are part of the game. If you are just running around and not getting any or many touches on the ball then you are not gaining much development. In fact, the one, especially at the younger ages, who developes most, while annoying everyone else, is the ball hog. This is the one who ultimately has the best skill.

                          Quality playtime is a must. Any coach/club who tells you otherwise and practices otherwise is a con-man...or woman. Rosters that have 20-23 for a 11 v 11 game is a joke unless they are playing 30+ games and there is a guarantee that your kid will start more than 30-40% and play more than 40% of any given game. The rules of the DAP are stupid!! 'Minimum starts of 20% and once you are subbed out you are out'. To hide behind the guise that they are readying the players for professional play is a cop-out. For 99% of the players college is the highest level they reach and subbing is pretty liberal.
                          You should always be leary of any club that carries more than 18 on a roster, especially in the younger years. HS aged maybe 20 because injuries that take players out for weeks on end are more common. Yet DA and ECNL teams will often have 22 or even more. At that age and at that level I don't expect equal PT but sufficient enough for a player to utilize what they're learning in training. But that rarely happens - plenty of kids see hardly any PT even with the minimum start times in DA. That's fine if you go in with that expectation. But if you think your kid isn't going to be a starter, or at least maybe #1-15 then your player may be better off stepping down one level. Sitting game after game doesn't each them anything and can be soul crushing

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                            #28
                            As someone who lived it for 2 years, I’ll warn other parents to be very careful with a little-or-no-playing-time situation. My kid was an ok town player and absolutely loved the game, but she’s the type of kid who recognizes her weaknesses and that she’s no superstar. She was very enthusiastic about trying out for a premier U14 club in the area, made the club, and then……..sat. She had very good training attendance and she’s not the kind of kid to give a coach any problems or make waves, but was lucky to see 10-15 minutes a game. Some games she never even saw the field. I gently approached the coach on this, and was given a litany of excuses, the main one being that she’s not that good (then why is she on your team???). Against my better judgment, my kid wanted to try a second year of this fiasco. I had a sliver of hope things would get better, but it was even less playing time (the U15 roster was bigger than the previous year, so even less minutes to go around). I think she actually regressed as a player during the 2 years – the trainings were very good and I think her skills got stronger, but due to the complete lack of game experience, she regressed as a field player. By the middle of the U15 season, she told me he’d had enough and I could see she was quite down on herself and the game in general. We doubted she’d even play HS soccer this year, as she was openly saying she wouldn’t right up until about a week before practices started. Anyway, she’s playing HS (JV) and she’s more like his old self, just having fun with it and smiling more. Most importantly, she’s getting real minutes on the field, making mistakes and learning. I think premier has a place for a special child/talent, but it can ruin a kid too, you have to be very careful with these clubs and you also have to be brutally honest with yourself about your child’s abilities. I still rue the day she ever set foot in that tryout. Like others have said, I’ll repeat it: if you’re afraid to go to the restroom because you’re afraid you’ll miss your kid’s 10 minutes of game time, don’t buy the “development” BS they spin, get out of Dodge as quickly as possible. The longer it goes on, the more likely you’ll end up crushing your kid’s love of this game. Been there, Done that.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                              ... you have to be very careful with these clubs and you also have to be brutally honest with yourself about your child’s abilities. I still rue the day she ever set foot in that tryout. Like others have said, I’ll repeat it: if you’re afraid to go to the restroom because you’re afraid you’ll miss your kid’s 10 minutes of game time, don’t buy the “development” BS they spin, get out of Dodge as quickly as possible. The longer it goes on, the more likely you’ll end up crushing your kid’s love of this game. Been there, Done that.
                              The first part is tricky, especially if you're new to the club world. Coaches are slick salesmen and it's easy to get sucked in if you don't do your homework. As for parents being brutally honest? Not many will be (because then they have to be honest with their kids) and not many are very good assessors of talent anyway.

                              My mantra is if your gut is telling you it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea. We let one of ours move up a level too far (from good premier to uber premier, but also her team was breaking up and we didn't have many other options) and I had an uneasy feeling going into it. Not only did she not get much PT but the coach was di** and not a good fit for a player struggling to adapt. She nearly quit because of it but we yanked her out (losing some $$ in the process but that's fine) and got her into a much better situation (spot opened up on a team that had been full and the coach remembered her from tryouts and contacted us). You have to look out for your kid

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                                The first part is tricky, especially if you're new to the club world. Coaches are slick salesmen and it's easy to get sucked in if you don't do your homework. As for parents being brutally honest? Not many will be (because then they have to be honest with their kids) and not many are very good assessors of talent anyway.

                                My mantra is if your gut is telling you it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea. We let one of ours move up a level too far (from good premier to uber premier, but also her team was breaking up and we didn't have many other options) and I had an uneasy feeling going into it. Not only did she not get much PT but the coach was di** and not a good fit for a player struggling to adapt. She nearly quit because of it but we yanked her out (losing some $$ in the process but that's fine) and got her into a much better situation (spot opened up on a team that had been full and the coach remembered her from tryouts and contacted us). You have to look out for your kid
                                yes, you pegged me - this was our first go-around in Club World, so I had no clue. Also, I'm not a soccer guy, so I had no idea about her true abilities/weaknesses. I remember asking her at least 4 or 5 times 'do you REALLY want to do this' before I contacted the coach to agree to join. I had a bad feeling about it from the get-go, and like you mention, I got a slick salesman-vibe from the coach. About midway through this past U15 season, I actually had a couple of parents of the better/best players on the team approach me and say you need to get her off this team because you're wasting your money here and she's not going to get better watching the games. I'm just so happy she got back up on the horse and did HS this season.

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