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FSM
08-15-2007, 01:14 PM
This article was posted in another forum with some additional information regarding headgear that I'll post separately.



The MUHC is out on the playing field with an innovative study on soccer headgears

Montreal, QC, July 13, 2007 - From small scrapes to hospital emergencies, playing soccer can be painful, and even dangerous. To avoid head injuries and concussions the only effective solution is wearing a soft protective headgear, as shown by Dr. Scott Delaney, Research Director of Emergency Medicine at the MUHC, in a new study published in the July issue of the British Journal of Sports Medicine.

In the first attempt to rely on results from the field instead of the lab, this innovative study was carried out just after the 2006 soccer season and included the 268 adolescents aged 12 to 17 years from the Oakville Soccer Club. Although only 52 of them wore a headgear during this period, the results are significant: the risk of concussion was 2.65 times higher for players who were not protected. In fact, 52.8% of the adolescents who did not wear a headgear reported being injured compared to only 26.9% of those who did wear one. These results are indeed noteworthy, particularly since approximately 80% of sports-related injuries are not recognized or reported. Prevention is therefore an essential means of protection.

Interestingly, though the headgear protects efficiently the areas of the head that are covered, there were no differences in the number of cuts and bruises on the areas of the head and face not covered by it. "This was important to examine as many people fear that the use of soccer headgear may make players more aggressive and more prone to other injuries. At least for these injuries, it may show that wearing a headgear does not encourage people to play more aggressively," stated Dr. Delaney.

Unfortunately, adolescents who regularly wear a headgear are not the rule and do not represent the majority of young athletes: most of them are young girls or adolescents who have already been injured. "Girls, in general, are more prone to concussions in soccer and they may be more aware of the possible benefits of wearing a headgear," remarked Dr. Delaney, who also practices at the McGill Sports Medicine Clinic. Since 2002, the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) has authorized soft headgears during official matches but has not made them mandatory. "This study may help convince parents and players that soft protective soccer headgear can be an effective part of a comprehensive plan to reduce the number of head injuries and concussions in soccer.," confirmed Dr. Delaney.

The McGill University Health Centre (MUHC) is a comprehensive academic health institution with an international reputation for excellence in clinical programs, research and teaching. The MUHC is a merger of five teaching hospitals affiliated with the Faculty of Medicine at McGill University - the Montreal Children's, Montreal General, Royal Victoria, and Montreal Neurological Hospitals, as well as the Montreal Chest Institute. Building on the tradition of medical leadership of the founding hospitals, the goal of the MUHC is to provide patient care based on the most advanced knowledge in the health care field, and to contribute to the development of new knowledge.

FSM
08-15-2007, 01:29 PM
I know the whole issue of head gear causes quite a bit of controversy among coaches, but I thought you might find the following of interest.

Yankee United is now including the Full90 Head Gear as part of their uniform package.

The Bangu Tsunami GU13 team was the Region II Champions this year and they all wear the Full90 Head Gear. Coaches in another forum who have seen them play say they are especially good in the air. Their coach keeps a blog on the team's experiences and also maintains statistics.

http://www.roadtoregionals.com/display/ ... T23:59:59Z (http://www.roadtoregionals.com/display/ShowJournal?moduleId=887713&filterBegin=2007-07-29T00:00:00Z&filterEnd=2007-08-04T23:59:59Z)

He indicates that 50% of the goals at Regionals (4 of 8) were off headers and that 13% of the seasons total were off headers (11 of 85). He also includes this comment:

People can laugh and talk negative all they want about me mandating the Full90 Head Gear for the players. We were by far the most aerial dominant team I saw this year. And guess what? Heading is an important part of the game. We scored 11 goals from headers and gave up 0 (lending to the thought that we were good in aerial battles on defense). 4 out of 8 goals at Regionals were scored by headers, this is against arguably the top regional teams at our age group. I teach the technique, the head gear gives the girls the confidence. People laugh at us, I laugh at the people laughing at us.

http://btfc.squarespace.com/storage/u13g_r2_champs.jpg

Cujo
08-15-2007, 02:13 PM
This article was posted in another forum with some additional information regarding headgear that I'll post separately.



The MUHC is out on the playing field with an innovative study on soccer headgears

Montreal, QC, July 13, 2007 - From small scrapes to hospital emergencies, playing soccer can be painful, and even dangerous. To avoid head injuries and concussions the only effective solution is wearing a soft protective headgear, as shown by Dr. Scott Delaney, Research Director of Emergency Medicine at the MUHC, in a new study published in the July issue of the British Journal of Sports Medicine.

In the first attempt to rely on results from the field instead of the lab, this innovative study was carried out just after the 2006 soccer season and included the 268 adolescents aged 12 to 17 years from the Oakville Soccer Club. Although only 52 of them wore a headgear during this period, the results are significant: the risk of concussion was 2.65 times higher for players who were not protected. In fact, 52.8% of the adolescents who did not wear a headgear reported being injured compared to only 26.9% of those who did wear one. These results are indeed noteworthy, particularly since approximately 80% of sports-related injuries are not recognized or reported. Prevention is therefore an essential means of protection.

Interestingly, though the headgear protects efficiently the areas of the head that are covered, there were no differences in the number of cuts and bruises on the areas of the head and face not covered by it. "This was important to examine as many people fear that the use of soccer headgear may make players more aggressive and more prone to other injuries. At least for these injuries, it may show that wearing a headgear does not encourage people to play more aggressively," stated Dr. Delaney.

Unfortunately, adolescents who regularly wear a headgear are not the rule and do not represent the majority of young athletes: most of them are young girls or adolescents who have already been injured. "Girls, in general, are more prone to concussions in soccer and they may be more aware of the possible benefits of wearing a headgear," remarked Dr. Delaney, who also practices at the McGill Sports Medicine Clinic. Since 2002, the Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) has authorized soft headgears during official matches but has not made them mandatory. "This study may help convince parents and players that soft protective soccer headgear can be an effective part of a comprehensive plan to reduce the number of head injuries and concussions in soccer.," confirmed Dr. Delaney.

The McGill University Health Centre (MUHC) is a comprehensive academic health institution with an international reputation for excellence in clinical programs, research and teaching. The MUHC is a merger of five teaching hospitals affiliated with the Faculty of Medicine at McGill University - the Montreal Children's, Montreal General, Royal Victoria, and Montreal Neurological Hospitals, as well as the Montreal Chest Institute. Building on the tradition of medical leadership of the founding hospitals, the goal of the MUHC is to provide patient care based on the most advanced knowledge in the health care field, and to contribute to the development of new knowledge.

How much stock does Dr Delaney have in the company that makes the headgear?

08-15-2007, 03:43 PM
with that many goals off headers, I wonder if the gear gives them a new found sense of security in attempting more headers. Hopefully, they keep self preservation in mind if they one day play without headgear.

FSM
10-05-2007, 09:29 AM
This was also on NBC News this week.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/sport ... wanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/02/sports/othersports/02concussions.html?ref=us&pagewanted=all)

October 2, 2007
Girls Are Often Neglected Victims of Concussions
By ALAN SCHWARZ

WEST HARTFORD, Conn. — Hannah Stohler sat beside the piano she could no longer play, in the living room that spun like a carousel, in the chair in which she tried to read but could not remember a word. Ten months after her third concussion while playing high school soccer knocked her into a winter-long haze of headaches and dizziness and depression that few around her could comprehend, Stohler recalled how she once viewed concussions.

“I thought they were a football injury — a boy thing,â€￾ said Stohler, a junior at Conard High School in West Hartford, Conn. “Those guys are taught to hit hard and knock people to the ground. But anyone can get a concussion, and I don’t think a lot of girls recognize that. They have no idea how awful the effects can be — it changes your life.â€￾

Stohler, 16, has more company than most people know. While football does have the most concussions (and controversy over their treatment) in high school athletics, girls competing in sports like soccer and basketball are more susceptible to concussions than boys are in the same sports, studies show.

According to a study to be published in the Journal of Athletic Training, in high school soccer, girls sustained concussions 68 percent more often than boys did. Female concussion rates in high school basketball were almost three times higher than among boys.

Girls also consistently took longer for their symptoms to resolve and to return to play. The study, conducted by researchers at Ohio State University and Nationwide Children’s Hospital, examined data submitted by 425 certified athletic trainers across the United States during the 2005-6 academic year. According to the National Federation of High School Sports Associations, a million youngsters play high school basketball and 700,000 play high school soccer each year; male participation is only slightly higher than among girls.

Fatal brain injuries in high school sports outside football are exceedingly rare, but post-concussion syndrome — in which dizziness, lethargy and the inability to concentrate can cost teenagers weeks or months of school — is a growing concern, doctors said. They added that it was just as common among girls as boys and even more misunderstood.

“Generally speaking, the medical profession does not do a very good job in recognizing that female athletes sustain concussions at an equal or even higher rate as males,â€￾ said Dr. Robert Cantu of Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, one of the nation’s leading experts in concussion management. “It’s flying under the radar. And as a result, looking for concussions in women is not pursued with the same diligence, and it’s setting girls up for a worse result.â€￾

Hannah Stohler twice slammed her head against the turf while playing soccer last fall, both times experiencing the disorientation, blurred vision and nausea that are telltale signs of concussion. She said her neurologist at the time told her that when her headaches subsided, she could play again.

“I really didn’t think it was a big deal,â€￾ she recalled, adding that she returned a few weeks later before her other symptoms had cleared. “Soccer is everything to me. I identify myself as an athlete.â€￾

In November, Stohler collided with another player, could not get up for 10 minutes, and left the field with her vision totally black. Her eyesight returned, but she experienced headaches and disorientation for three months, could barely read and was forbidden to exercise for fear of causing further damage.

“I was the freak at school who could only do half days and had to go home all the time,â€￾ said Stohler, whose reading comprehension and memory remain slightly impaired. “I didn’t feel like myself — ever. I was miserable. It takes the life out of you.â€￾

Another young female victim of post-concussion syndrome lives just 20 miles up the road from Stohler. Kate Pellin, a standout basketball player in Suffield, Conn., has sustained at least four concussions, three times being knocked unconscious while diving for balls or being slammed to the hardwood by other players. “I get offended when people say girls don’t play sports as hard as boys,â€￾ she said.

Pellin’s last concussion, in April, caused such lingering headaches, sensitivity to light and noise and constant dizziness that she ultimately missed the rest of her junior school year.

“My teachers couldn’t understand why I couldn’t do my homework,â€￾ Pellin said. “I didn’t have crutches, where everyone can see you’re hurt. It’s a hidden injury. Boys would tell me, ‘You should wear a head brace!’ like ha-ha, and I was like, ‘Maybe that’s what I should do for you to take me seriously.’â€￾

According to the study to be published in the Journal of Athletic Training, football has the highest rate of concussions in high school sports, with 47 such injuries per 100,000 player games or practices. Girls soccer was second highest with 36 per 100,000, followed by boys soccer (22) and girls basketball (21).

Most soccer concussions are caused by hard falls to the ground or collisions with other players. Heading the ball is not a primary cause, studies have determined, because the impact is not of sufficient force to send the brain crashing into the skull.

Attempts at heading do engender many concussions, however, as players’ heads collide in battles for the ball. This has led to the increased use of padded headbands designed to lessen the forces of many blows, but their effectiveness remains the subject of debate.

One study published this summer said that such headgear appeared to reduce concussions among soccer players, but some coaches and doctors fear that their use could foster more aggressive play. Hannah Stohler said she wore one only temporarily. “It was really distracting,â€￾ she said, “and I didn’t feel it was going to make much difference.â€￾

Doctors are also uncertain as to why documented rates of concussion among high school girls are consistently higher than among boys in the same sports. The primary theory is that girls might be more honest in reporting injuries — though experts are confident that many girls, just like boys, hide injuries either because they are not aware of the risks or because they simply do not want to miss playing time. Other rationales include the fact that girls’ neck muscles are less developed than boys’, providing less shock absorption during impact.

After sustaining her second concussion playing high school basketball in Ohio, Sarah Ingles kept playing the rest of the game because, she said, “I didn’t really realize it had happened.â€￾ On the bus ride home she began asking friends, “Where are we? What’s going on?â€￾ She did not know she had played basketball two hours before, let alone been knocked hard to the floor on a layup.

Ingles missed six weeks of school. Now at Ohio Wesleyan University, she found her dizziness and nausea return two weeks ago by merely bumping her head on a bed frame. She is sitting out her freshman field hockey and basketball seasons on the advice of a neurologist.

“Girls are just as competitive as boys, and they’ll push through concussions just like boys would,â€￾ Ingles said. “For every one of me, who ends up getting treated, there are maybe four or five who keep playing because they don’t want to admit they’re hurt. It’s easier not to do anything. It’s really going to mess them up further.â€￾

The decision over whether to stop playing competitive sports can be agonizing for high school girls and their families.

Kate Pellin planned to serve as basketball captain this winter, in part because several colleges her parents could not otherwise afford — Colgate, Iona, Lehigh — were considering her for a full basketball scholarship. But her headaches have persisted for five months. She still has trouble reading and transposes numbers in math, signs that her brain has not yet recovered and remains susceptible to greater injury.

Pellin decided only recently not to risk playing basketball anymore, in large part because of news media coverage of concussions’ role in long-term brain damage among professional football players. She sat on her living room couch, a seemingly healthy teenager, and broke into tears.

“I don’t want to have Alzheimer’s when I’m 40,â€￾ Pellin said. “I want to know who my husband is. Who my children are. I never knew this was such a concern. In the long run, I’ll be glad I stopped now.â€￾

The decision was less clear-cut with the Stohlers. Sherry Stohler said that she and her husband spent many hours talking with Hannah about whether her soccer career should end. Half-seriously, she said, “It’s like she can have depression when she’s older because of the concussions, or be in therapy now because she hates her parents.â€￾

Sitting beside Hannah, she said: “It’s a nerve-racking decision when your child’s identity is so wrapped up in something she’s played since she was 5 or 6. To snatch that dream of playing high school sports away is a pretty large burden to carry. It’s very hard to take away something they treasure.â€￾

Hannah looked at her mother and said defiantly: “There was no way I wouldn’t play. I know I’m not going to be a professional soccer player, but I’m good at it, and the team atmosphere is something I love. It’s not something I’m willing to give up easily.â€￾

She did not. The next evening, having convinced her neurologist and her parents that her remaining symptoms were minimal, Hannah Stohler wore No. 22 and played defensive midfield as Conard High played rival Windsor High.

As Sherry Stohler watched from the stands, leaning forward slightly every time No. 22 hit the turf during a slide tackle or rough play, old images of her daughter lying motionless were superimposed over the new.

“As long as she gets up and keeps playing,â€￾ the mother said with a sigh, “it’s a good night.â€￾

10-05-2007, 10:45 AM
It's Onthree. Am I understanding correctly? In the study cited, in one club, 98 of 196 athletes suffered concussions? From my experience, I find that number highly suspect. Or does the study include any head injury? For example, a player reported that s/he bumped his/her head and it hurt when it happened. Statistics have a way of managing truth.

Cujo
10-05-2007, 11:00 AM
It's Onthree. Am I understanding correctly? In the study cited, in one club, 98 of 196 athletes suffered concussions? From my experience, I find that number highly suspect. Or does the study include any head injury? For example, a player reported that s/he bumped his/her head and it hurt when it happened. Statistics have a way of managing truth.

In six years of coaching HS soccer and with perhaps 150 different players that I was responsible for - I had 4 players who had one concussion each and 1 player who had 2 conussions in one year. I worked closely with her doc and sat her out until she was given clearance by two separate docs. Ankle injuries were by far the most common. I can remember 1 broken foot, 1 broken ankle, a half dozen severe ankle sprains, and 1 separated shoulder. The only knee injury that my players experienced was a blown out ACL by one of my defenders playing club during the spring who missed her subsequent fall HS season.

I think that the headgear issue should be all or nothing. Either everyone is mandated to wear or nobody is allowed. Personally I am against it just as I am against batters wearing cages in softball at the HS level. If your reaction time is so bad that you can't get out of the way of a pitch you should not be playing at that level. Watching college players use it is ridiculous. It takes all of the fear out of batting which is one of the edges that pitchers use to their advantage.

Alter Ego
10-05-2007, 11:11 AM
My daughter is a keeper who has suffered 4 concussions in the past 3 years. The worst occured during an indoor game on a boarded field almost 3 years ago and she took a foot to the head in a premier game about 6 weeks later. That one gave her post concussious syndrom which keep her out of the rest of her U13 spring season. She has been wearing a full 90 since then. Can I say that the full 90 has reduced the risk of injury to her head - no, I can not say one way or an other. She does wear it religiously now, she will not even practice break aways without it. Personally, my biggest issue with the soccer community and head injuries is that coaches are not educated properly on what to look for. As the NY Times article says and my daughter also did this, this girls will tell the coach they feel fine within a few minutes and they get put back in the game. The risk of a second, more serious injury occures when the player is put back in the game before they are ready. Coaches need to take head injuries more seriously and let go of the "win at all costs" mentality. Is it worth risking a permanent brain injury to win at state cup at 15?

10-05-2007, 11:46 AM
My daughter is a keeper who has suffered 4 concussions in the past 3 years. ?

She has only one brain. No matter how much she loves soccer, she should pick another sport with little or no risk to her head. Head gear or no head gear, especially as a keeper!

10-05-2007, 12:10 PM
My daughter is a keeper who has suffered 4 concussions in the past 3 years. The worst occured during an indoor game on a boarded field almost 3 years ago and she took a foot to the head in a premier game about 6 weeks later. That one gave her post concussious syndrom which keep her out of the rest of her U13 spring season. She has been wearing a full 90 since then. Can I say that the full 90 has reduced the risk of injury to her head - no, I can not say one way or an other. She does wear it religiously now, she will not even practice break aways without it. Personally, my biggest issue with the soccer community and head injuries is that coaches are not educated properly on what to look for. As the NY Times article says and my daughter also did this, this girls will tell the coach they feel fine within a few minutes and they get put back in the game. The risk of a second, more serious injury occures when the player is put back in the game before they are ready. Coaches need to take head injuries more seriously and let go of the "win at all costs" mentality. Is it worth risking a permanent brain injury to win at state cup at 15?


If she has had 4 concussions over 3 years, headgear or not, she should not be playing at this time.

10-05-2007, 02:09 PM
I think that the headgear issue should be all or nothing. Either everyone is mandated to wear or nobody is allowed. Personally I am against it just as I am against batters wearing cages in softball at the HS level. If your reaction time is so bad that you can't get out of the way of a pitch you should not be playing at that level. Watching college players use it is ridiculous. It takes all of the fear out of batting which is one of the edges that pitchers use to their advantage.

Actually going to agree with Cujo and I am not drinking or anything. Either do it or dont. Theres a huge difference between the sports that require them and soccer; most obvious is the ball and the speed in which it travels

10-05-2007, 02:22 PM
I think that the headgear issue should be all or nothing. Either everyone is mandated to wear or nobody is allowed.

It should be an individual choice.

10-05-2007, 02:56 PM
Although only 52 of them wore a headgear during this period, the results are significant: the risk of concussion was 2.65 times higher for players who were not protected.

What is the yearly rate of concussions in youth soccer ? One in a hundred players ? One in fifty ?

Unless its 1 in two or three, there is no way this study has statistical significance. With only 52 individuals enrolled in the study arm (wearing headgear) and 268-52 = 216 in the control arm, the study is woefully underpowered to draw any conclusions.

10-05-2007, 03:08 PM
I have been involve with Girls youth soccer for 8 years now and I have seen a total of 4 concussions and that is all. In the last four years I have seen 17 ACLs and many MCLs and those are just the ones I remember. I understand that any concussion is serious and I am not making light of it but this study suggest some really outrageous numbers and I don't believe it at all.

MASC
10-05-2007, 03:09 PM
I am not sure of the effectiveness of the head gear. What it does do is embolden timid players to be more aggressive heading the ball. For GU13's who tend not to want to head, the head gear probably gives them more confidence.

I can see how a GU13 coach would use these to encourage more aggressive play in the air. It is not clear that this was done for safety. It appears more for a competitive advantage.

The players that I have coached wearing them have had problems keeping them properly in place. If it is to allow a player recovering from a concussion to play then the player does not belong on the pitch.

Coaches should have some first aid training and be able to recognize the potential for ongoing problems.

With respect to the more serious injuries, the head gear provides no protection. An impact that would cause a cervical spine injury is not changed by the use of head gear.

In other sports, e.g. hockey and football, there is serious research being performed to change the nature of the head protection. The goal being to not allow its use as a weapon, but rather to better protect the brain.

Cujo
10-05-2007, 04:22 PM
I am not sure of the effectiveness of the head gear. What it does do is embolden timid players to be more aggressive heading the ball. For GU13's who tend not to want to head, the head gear probably gives them more confidence.

I can see how a GU13 coach would use these to encourage more aggressive play in the air. It is not clear that this was done for safety. It appears more for a competitive advantage.

The players that I have coached wearing them have had problems keeping them properly in place. If it is to allow a player recovering from a concussion to play then the player does not belong on the pitch.

Coaches should have some first aid training and be able to recognize the potential for ongoing problems.

With respect to the more serious injuries, the head gear provides no protection. An impact that would cause a cervical spine injury is not changed by the use of head gear.

In other sports, e.g. hockey and football, there is serious research being performed to change the nature of the head protection. The goal being to not allow its use as a weapon, but rather to better protect the brain.

I think among many there is a misconception about what causes concussions. From what I have read blows to the head are somewhat less likely to cause one than sudden acceleration or rapid stopping that piles the brain up against the front or back of the skull. The idea that the headgear can stop this kind of injury is very mistaken. I have had 4 concussions as an adult and three were from playing hockey and occurred despite the fact that I was wearing a helmet and a mouthguard. I stupidly on two occassions tried to cut between a defenseman and the boards while skating at full tilt. In neither case was there any impact to my head but I did come to a stop in a hurry. As for my players my goaltender was injured from colliding suddenly with a forward and my other players all were taken down from the side or behind or were in rapid motion during set plays and force of impact caused them to change directions. Headgear would not have prevented any of these injuries. I still maintain that the push for headgear is being driven by profits, who doesn't look at the number of youth players and drool at the potential profits resulting from a headgear mandate. I am not coaching now but I think that if headgear wear mandated I would probably stop my involvement with the sport. I think it changes the fundamental spirit of the game.

The NHL has been debating whether to make cages mandatory. Similarly I would stop watching the game. It would ruin it. I recently left a men's league that mandated cages. I absolutely hate them and will not use them.

10-05-2007, 05:14 PM
I have had 4 concussions as an adult

I knew it! That explains everything.

Cujo
10-05-2007, 05:27 PM
I have had 4 concussions as an adult

I knew it! That explains everything.

Please stick to the topic. This is a discussion about headgear and is an important issue that everybody needs to pay attention to. I think that rather than headgear the focus should be providing coaches with seminars that help them identify and handle players with concussions.

I am asking that the moderator delete any posts that stray from the discussion at hand. The trolls have had the run of the forum long enough and everybody is sick of them. Thank you.

10-05-2007, 05:30 PM
I have been involve with Girls youth soccer for 8 years now and I have seen a total of 4 concussions and that is all. In the last four years I have seen 17 ACLs and many MCLs and those are just the ones I remember. I understand that any concussion is serious and I am not making light of it but this study suggest some really outrageous numbers and I don't believe it at all.

While no one would suggest that it is not heartbreaking and potentially "career" ending for a player to receive the knee injuries, the long-term effects of concussions can be devastating. Knees can sometimes be fixed (yes, not always, and some may have to take alternative paths), but head injuries can be life alterting.

I don't know where I come out on the head gear, I don't have enough information on their effectiveness. I do know my daughter would hate wearing one, but if she had to choose she'd probably choose that over the mouthguards.

10-05-2007, 08:17 PM
My daughter is a keeper who has suffered 4 concussions in the past 3 years.

As another poster said, your daughter should not be playing after that many concussions at this age. Four concussions in 3 years is a very high rate for a child and creates a huge risk of future injury.

10-05-2007, 08:27 PM
I am a doctor and a parent, and I have read up on concussions in youth sports. I completely agree with several other posters that 4 concussions in 3 years should retire this child from the game. The risk of permanent brain injury (now), and/or delayed neurological and psychological ill effects (think Muhammed Ali, and those aging NFL retirees with depression, suicide, Parkinson's disease and premature Alzheimer's) is great in the vulnerable brain of a teenager.

This is too long to post in its entirety, but link here to NY Times article on concussions in youth sports (focusing on football, but generalizable to other activities). Warning: graphic and heart-breaking descriptions of injury and death in teen athletes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/15/sport ... ref=slogin (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/15/sports/football/15concussions.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

10-05-2007, 10:31 PM
I'm not sure I understand the case against headgear of the Full90 sort. The case for it is that it may prevent some percentage of concussions that would otherwise occur. Even if youths were spared 1% of concussions, or if concussions merely became less severe, I would think that worth pursuing because of the potentially devastating consequences of brain injury.

Now perhaps the number of concussions saved is too small given some other downside of wearing headgear, but what is that downside? No one has suggested that headgear changes the nature of the game. FIFA allows headgear to be worn. There is the claim that headgear makes players more aggressive when heading the ball. This, however, is a downside only if the additional aggression (which I personally doubt because I've never seen a player who I thought was a particularly aggressive header wearing headgear) actually results in more injuries than headgear saves. From what I've read here and elsewhere, there's no evidence that players suffer higher injury rates when headgear is worn.

So, unless I'm missing something, headgear appears to offer more benefits than drawbacks. Shouldn't we then either strongly encourage or require players to wear them?

10-05-2007, 10:52 PM
If headgear is mandated in youth soccer, should it then be mandated in high school ? Then, if in high school, should it be required in college ? Would an aggressive style of play be developed with the head gear on and the same aggressive style then carry over into the next level of play where headgear may not be required ?

Cujo
10-05-2007, 11:00 PM
I'm not sure I understand the case against headgear of the Full90 sort. The case for it is that it may prevent some percentage of concussions that would otherwise occur. Even if youths were spared 1% of concussions, or if concussions merely became less severe, I would think that worth pursuing because of the potentially devastating consequences of brain injury.

Now perhaps the number of concussions saved is too small given some other downside of wearing headgear, but what is that downside? No one has suggested that headgear changes the nature of the game. FIFA allows headgear to be worn. There is the claim that headgear makes players more aggressive when heading the ball. This, however, is a downside only if the additional aggression (which I personally doubt because I've never seen a player who I thought was a particularly aggressive header wearing headgear) actually results in more injuries than headgear saves. From what I've read here and elsewhere, there's no evidence that players suffer higher injury rates when headgear is worn.

So, unless I'm missing something, headgear appears to offer more benefits than drawbacks. Shouldn't we then either strongly encourage or require players to wear them?

I think the bottom line is that there is still a debate going on as to whether they prevent concussions. The original intent of the gear was to protect from concussions due to heading but there is little evidence that heading causes injury. Now the debate is shifted to whether or not it prevents concussions on head to head blows or knee to head etc. It may prevent trauma injuries but I am dubious on it being a panacea for concussions. To me it is such a radical change in the game that I am not in favor of it. It would be like mandating cages in little league or softball.

10-06-2007, 07:54 AM
I have had 4 concussions as an adult

I knew it! That explains everything.

Please stick to the topic. This is a discussion about headgear and is an important issue that everybody needs to pay attention to. I think that rather than headgear the focus should be providing coaches with seminars that help them identify and handle players with concussions.

I am asking that the moderator delete any posts that stray from the discussion at hand. The trolls have had the run of the forum long enough and everybody is sick of them. Thank you.

I am sticking to the topic and I'm not trolling. Read the article on football concussions. You exhibit some of the same symptoms. Seriously, everyone sees this but you Cujo.

10-06-2007, 09:34 AM
In response to the question of whether headgear should be mandated all the way through the game into the professional ranks: That's a hard question. I understand the impulse to give individuals the choice of whether they choose to protect themselves. And, given that the evidence of meaningful safety gains isn't conclusive, perhaps the case for mandatory headgear hasn't yet been made. However, if headgear were to be made mandatory at the youth level, I think the general trend would be towards either mandatory or fairly widespread voluntary usage through senior levels of the game. Players who get used to having the headgear on will likely keep using it, and this will mean less resistance if/when senior leagues begin requiring headgear.

In response to Cujo's point about "radical change": I don't understand how headgear radically changes soccer. It does not confer an advantage on the headgear wearer, other than injury prevention. If headgear did "radically" alter the game, why would FIFA permit wearing it?

You use the example of face cages in softball and baseball. Frankly, especially at the youth level, I think they make even more sense than soccer headgear. Young pitchers have little control. As pitchers begin to develop breaking balls, young batters have to "hang in there" while figuring out whether the ball is a curve or a wayward fastball. Why not protect them from injuries that result from mistakes of judgment at that age? Getting hit in the face by a pitched ball is pretty serious business.

I recognize the argument that intimidation is part of baseball, and pitchers use fear to succeed. However, there are two observations that decrease the strength of the argument. First, players (including professionals) routinely use equipment (elbow guards, wrist guards, etc) so they can hang out over the plate and worry less about being hit. If intimidation is so important that reducing fear constitutes a "radical" change in the game, why does MLB (or for that matter any other league) permit the use of that equipment? Second, intimidation from head-to-head collisions is not part of soccer, especially the kind of soccer considered most attractive, fun to watch, and effective.

10-06-2007, 11:01 AM
I have had 4 concussions as an adult

I knew it! That explains everything.

Please stick to the topic. This is a discussion about headgear and is an important issue that everybody needs to pay attention to. I think that rather than headgear the focus should be providing coaches with seminars that help them identify and handle players with concussions.

I am asking that the moderator delete any posts that stray from the discussion at hand. The trolls have had the run of the forum long enough and everybody is sick of them. Thank you.

I am sticking to the topic and I'm not trolling. Read the article on football concussions. You exhibit some of the same symptoms. Seriously, everyone sees this but you Cujo.

And you exhibit the symptons of being a coach hating sideline armchair parent. Get help for that.

10-06-2007, 11:04 AM
In response to the question of whether headgear should be mandated all the way through the game into the professional ranks: That's a hard question. I understand the impulse to give individuals the choice of whether they choose to protect themselves. And, given that the evidence of meaningful safety gains isn't conclusive, perhaps the case for mandatory headgear hasn't yet been made. However, if headgear were to be made mandatory at the youth level, I think the general trend would be towards either mandatory or fairly widespread voluntary usage through senior levels of the game. Players who get used to having the headgear on will likely keep using it, and this will mean less resistance if/when senior leagues begin requiring headgear.

In response to Cujo's point about "radical change": I don't understand how headgear radically changes soccer. It does not confer an advantage on the headgear wearer, other than injury prevention. If headgear did "radically" alter the game, why would FIFA permit wearing it?

You use the example of face cages in softball and baseball. Frankly, especially at the youth level, I think they make even more sense than soccer headgear. Young pitchers have little control. As pitchers begin to develop breaking balls, young batters have to "hang in there" while figuring out whether the ball is a curve or a wayward fastball. Why not protect them from injuries that result from mistakes of judgment at that age? Getting hit in the face by a pitched ball is pretty serious business.

I recognize the argument that intimidation is part of baseball, and pitchers use fear to succeed. However, there are two observations that decrease the strength of the argument. First, players (including professionals) routinely use equipment (elbow guards, wrist guards, etc) so they can hang out over the plate and worry less about being hit. If intimidation is so important that reducing fear constitutes a "radical" change in the game, why does MLB (or for that matter any other league) permit the use of that equipment? Second, intimidation from head-to-head collisions is not part of soccer, especially the kind of soccer considered most attractive, fun to watch, and effective.

It is a radical change because it takes much of the fear out of heading. As for facial protection in softball and baseball what happens to the player when they get to a level where the equipment is not permitted. It is really important to learn how to get out of the way. The faceguard is a crutch. I think the impact and frequency of concussions is much less than other injuries - why not require knee and ankle b races too. Where does it stop?

10-06-2007, 12:55 PM
It is a radical change because it takes much of the fear out of heading. As for facial protection in softball and baseball what happens to the player when they get to a level where the equipment is not permitted. It is really important to learn how to get out of the way. The faceguard is a crutch. I think the impact and frequency of concussions is much less than other injuries - why not require knee and ankle b races too. Where does it stop?

If it is a radical change by taking the fear out of heading, and if taking out that fear amounts to a competitive advantage, then every player - particularly top professionals - would use headgear to gain that advantage. Moreover, a "radical" (not incremental) change should make the small percentage of those who do wear headgear distinctly more effective in the air. I honestly don't think that has happened.

As for the faceguard issue, why is it a crutch? Because fear of being hit "ought" to be part of the game? Sure, people need to learn how to get out of the way. I don't see kids who wear faceguards not getting out of the way. As for what happens at higher levels of competition, I'm not even sure that the major leagues prohibit them. Here's the MLB helmet rule from MLB.com, which makes no mention of faceguards pro or con:

1.16
A Professional League shall adopt the following rule pertaining to the use of helmets:
(a) All players shall use some type of protective helmet while at bat.
(b) All players in National Association Leagues shall wear a double ear-flap helmet while at bat.
(c) All players entering the Major Leagues commencing with the 1983 championship season and every succeeding season thereafter must wear a single ear-flap helmet (or at the player’s option, a double ear-flap helmet), except those players who were in the Major League during the 1982 season, and who, as recorded in that season, objected to wearing a single ear-flap helmet.
(d) All catchers shall wear a catcher’s protective helmet, while fielding their position.
(e) All bat/ball boys or girls shall wear a protective helmet while performing their duties.

For whatever it's worth, MLB mandates a double ear flap for some, and single for others. By the reasoning applied to face guards, isn't an earflap a crutch too?

Cujo
10-06-2007, 01:14 PM
It is a radical change because it takes much of the fear out of heading. As for facial protection in softball and baseball what happens to the player when they get to a level where the equipment is not permitted. It is really important to learn how to get out of the way. The faceguard is a crutch. I think the impact and frequency of concussions is much less than other injuries - why not require knee and ankle b races too. Where does it stop?

If it is a radical change by taking the fear out of heading, and if taking out that fear amounts to a competitive advantage, then every player - particularly top professionals - would use headgear to gain that advantage. Moreover, a "radical" (not incremental) change should make the small percentage of those who do wear headgear distinctly more effective in the air. I honestly don't think that has happened.

As for the faceguard issue, why is it a crutch? Because fear of being hit "ought" to be part of the game? Sure, people need to learn how to get out of the way. I don't see kids who wear faceguards not getting out of the way. As for what happens at higher levels of competition, I'm not even sure that the major leagues prohibit them. Here's the MLB helmet rule from MLB.com, which makes no mention of faceguards pro or con:

1.16
A Professional League shall adopt the following rule pertaining to the use of helmets:
(a) All players shall use some type of protective helmet while at bat.
(b) All players in National Association Leagues shall wear a double ear-flap helmet while at bat.
(c) All players entering the Major Leagues commencing with the 1983 championship season and every succeeding season thereafter must wear a single ear-flap helmet (or at the player’s option, a double ear-flap helmet), except those players who were in the Major League during the 1982 season, and who, as recorded in that season, objected to wearing a single ear-flap helmet.
(d) All catchers shall wear a catcher’s protective helmet, while fielding their position.
(e) All bat/ball boys or girls shall wear a protective helmet while performing their duties.

For whatever it's worth, MLB mandates a double ear flap for some, and single for others. By the reasoning applied to face guards, isn't an earflap a crutch too?

An earflap helps protect the portion of your head that if hit can be fatal (can't remember what it is called. Part of a pitcher's arsenal is fear and the ability to claim the inner-half of the plate. Take that away and you lose the outer half too. The plate and strike zone is small enough to begin with. It is a advantage for the hitter that fundamentally alters the competitive balance. I do not think that the soccer headgear is as radical a change though but I am not in favor of the equipment at this time.

10-06-2007, 08:26 PM
I have had 4 concussions as an adult

I knew it! That explains everything.

Please stick to the topic. This is a discussion about headgear and is an important issue that everybody needs to pay attention to. I think that rather than headgear the focus should be providing coaches with seminars that help them identify and handle players with concussions.

I am asking that the moderator delete any posts that stray from the discussion at hand. The trolls have had the run of the forum long enough and everybody is sick of them. Thank you.

I am sticking to the topic and I'm not trolling. Read the article on football concussions. You exhibit some of the same symptoms. Seriously, everyone sees this but you Cujo.

And you exhibit the symptons of being a coach hating sideline armchair parent. Get help for that.

I am a coach and not a parent, as far as I know.

Cujo
10-08-2007, 11:16 AM
[quote="Cujo":6swoqiga]
I have had 4 concussions as an adult

I knew it! That explains everything.

Please stick to the topic. This is a discussion about headgear and is an important issue that everybody needs to pay attention to. I think that rather than headgear the focus should be providing coaches with seminars that help them identify and handle players with concussions.

I am asking that the moderator delete any posts that stray from the discussion at hand. The trolls have had the run of the forum long enough and everybody is sick of them. Thank you.

I am sticking to the topic and I'm not trolling. Read the article on football concussions. You exhibit some of the same symptoms. Seriously, everyone sees this but you Cujo.

And you exhibit the symptons of being a coach hating sideline armchair parent. Get help for that.

I am a coach and not a parent, as far as I know.[/quote:6swoqiga]

That's a shame. I hate it when one of our own goes over to the darkside. Usually it is because of money or fear of losing your job. Too bad. Read through this forum carefully (esp Florida) and you will see lots of coach and ref hating and baiting. This makes me doubt that you are a real coach.

10-09-2007, 12:53 AM
My daughter has adjusted to the headgear as a HS Junior. She has had three concussions in four years and has taken significant time off each time as a precaution (entire seasons). Her teammates and coach of both her club and HS teams repeatedly preasured her to comeback because the team needed her. She wanted to come back and I was on an island by myself to not allow her to play, but I know I made the correct decision in the best interest of her heath.

Coaches, I have a few questions for you:

1. Would you recommend the headgear to one of your players that has a history of concussions?

2. What is the best advice you would give to one of your players to help avoid another concussion (style of play, be less agressiveness, become more of a quick passer/playmaker)?

3. What part of the field would you put a player (defender, middie or striker) that has a history of concussions?

4. Would you train them any differently in the best interest of the player's heath and to insure that such a player can contribute to the team.

10-09-2007, 07:13 AM
Coaches, I have a few questions for you:

1. Would you recommend the headgear to one of your players that has a history of concussions?

2. What is the best advice you would give to one of your players to help avoid another concussion (style of play, be less agressiveness, become more of a quick passer/playmaker)?

3. What part of the field would you put a player (defender, middie or striker) that has a history of concussions?

4. Would you train them any differently in the best interest of the player's heath and to insure that such a player can contribute to the team.

1. Yes. This is the ONLY situation that I think head gear is warranted.

2. I don't believe concussions are linked to "style of play".

3. Most concusssions in soccer come from three types of events: head to head clashes (most common), elbow to head (this is more likely to affect face), keepers head to goal upright.

It probably doesn't matter, but outside mids probably head the ball least. Perhaps there.

4. No. Make sure they head with good technique. Same as all the other players.

10-09-2007, 07:17 AM
These four questions raise a slew of others. For example, how did you daughter get the injuries? Was it simply from heading (doubtful), from contact with another player (head to head or foot to head) or from contact with the field or goal post. If it was contact with another player, then I would say mid-fielders tend to be the most prone, but that re-starts and set plays offer opportunities for contact regardless of position. As for the use of head gear and mouth pieces, the jury is still out regarding whether they actually make a difference. Lets face it, football players currently have a degree of head protection that dwarfs any other sport. However the nature of the game still makes for lots of concussions, and the helmet just doesn't work on lots of hits. The easy resonse to this is that the helmet certainly prevents some head trauma, but would the use of head gear embolden players resulting in more contact. If you think this is foolish ask hockey players who were around pre face masks and then post and ask them how the game changed. Changes like this need to be embraced by the entire community and implemented across the board in order to be succesful. Right now the only soccer players using mouthpieces are in HS. I have never met a player who likes them. Most begrudgingly follow the rule, but make every attempt to avoid it. This tends to be most prevelent in better players who really question why they are "forced" to do somting in HS that isn't required an any other pitch. Unfortunately these are the players who would benefit the most because they tend to have more touches and thus more opportunity for contact. Finally is a very real question: Is their enough correctable instances of concussion in soccer to merit this attention? I understand that this seems obvious to parents of injured players or doctors who treat those injuries, but really - is it a big enough problem? We all agree that knee inuries are a big problem, especially for girls. Mandatory use of b races would help prevent some of those injuries. Should all soccer players wear knee b races like almost all offensive line-men do? As Cujo will attest some parents cause problems at games, but should all games be played away from spectators? Apples and oranges, I agree, but for the sake of argument still germain. Bottom line - lets see some studies not sponsored by those with a pre-existing interest in the hange, and compare before a decision is made.

10-09-2007, 07:27 AM
Is their enough correctable instances of concussion in soccer to merit this attention?

[
While no one would suggest that it is not heartbreaking and potentially "career" ending for a player to receive the knee injuries, the long-term effects of concussions can be devastating. Knees can sometimes be fixed (yes, not always, and some may have to take alternative paths), but head injuries can be life alterting.



What do you mean "correctable"? If the question is whether headgear can help prevent concussions, i think that yes, given the longterm effects of concussions, at least examining the issue is worthwhile.

Apples and oranges, I agree, but for the sake of argument still germain

Comparing knee injuries to concussions is, I would submit, more like apples and elephants.

10-10-2007, 11:40 AM
Her concussed history:

1st: an elbow to the head at full speed (age 13), she was leveled.

2nd: 2 weeks later as a central mid after getting the OK by her Doctor. She attempted to win a 50/50 ball against the sweeper. The sweeper had a powerful strike to clear the ball which found her head shorty after. Season done.

3rd: Blind side head to head hit from a fullback (age 15). She was playing outside mid and had position on the ball, but the defender...I still have no idea what she was thinking when she agressively went for the ball that my daughter had trapped and controlled. Sophmore season done, maybe 7 games played.

Concussions in soccer need to be taken more seriously. Two of her three concussions were a result of questionable plays. I think the message needs to be sent to the players through the parents, coaches and the officials. Players need to understand and be educated on the dangers of head injuries, maybe then more players will stay heathly. When players do sustain a concussion, they need to step away for 2-4 weeks so that a second one does not occur shorty after the first one. There is no guarantee for re-injury, but down time should help.

Players that play with high flying elbows, dangerous plays, hard fouls, etc need to be stopped. Officials should send off this type of player or coaches need to pull out a player immediately and not have them return regardless if there is any apparent intent to injure. Any player in the NFL responsible for blows to the head, or spearing are subject to penalty and significant fines. The NFL is aknowledging for the first time that this is a serious problem and I believe that will reduce the number of concussions because they are finally addressing it.

Cujo
10-10-2007, 11:44 AM
My daughter has adjusted to the headgear as a HS Junior. She has had three concussions in four years and has taken significant time off each time as a precaution (entire seasons). Her teammates and coach of both her club and HS teams repeatedly preasured her to comeback because the team needed her. She wanted to come back and I was on an island by myself to not allow her to play, but I know I made the correct decision in the best interest of her heath.

Coaches, I have a few questions for you:

1. Would you recommend the headgear to one of your players that has a history of concussions?

2. What is the best advice you would give to one of your players to help avoid another concussion (style of play, be less agressiveness, become more of a quick passer/playmaker)?

3. What part of the field would you put a player (defender, middie or striker) that has a history of concussions?

4. Would you train them any differently in the best interest of the player's heath and to insure that such a player can contribute to the team.

1) Yes, esp if two concussions close together time wise.
2) Not less aggressive but change style, keep head out of situations near the ground.
3) Don't think it matters
4) I would offer them options and solutions about how to approach situations similar to the ones that produced the concussions.

10-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Headgear..maybe it helps, maybe not, but policing the game will.

10-10-2007, 11:50 AM
Cujo,

Your comments on #4...great feedback!

10-10-2007, 11:57 AM
I am simply not sure if the type of soft-head gear available would in fact limit the likelihood of concussion in the event of significant head on anything contact (elbow, opponents head, goal post or turf). It may soften the blow, but I think the most recent research on how concussions occur indicates essentially what Cujo offered - that it is the internal pressure of brian on inside skull (the old getting your "bell rung") caused by the external contact that causes the concussion. Soft padding laid directly on the outside of your head wont do a whole lot to prevent that ringing mechanism from occuring. So the only sure fire way to prevent the concussion is to prevent the contact to the head. If you buy this logic, then the headgear is only a placebo that may very well foster even greater aggresive play and more of the undesired contact! This is precisely what happened in hockey when face masks were introduced, however the difference is that face masks do prevent mouth and face lacerations even when there is significantly more high sticks and aggressive contact. HS is particularly dangerous because the ball is in the air so much of the time and you have a huge disparity between the talent of players.

10-10-2007, 12:02 PM
Maybe we are going in the direction of the no-heading rule tossed around last year...... surely no one that loves soccer wants to see that?! You are all probably right on target when you say that policing the game and instructing the players as to proper play is the best defense.

Cujo
10-10-2007, 12:05 PM
I am simply not sure if the type of soft-head gear available would in fact limit the likelihood of concussion in the event of significant head on anything contact (elbow, opponents head, goal post or turf). It may soften the blow, but I think the most recent research on how concussions occur indicates essentially what Cujo offered - that it is the internal pressure of brian on inside skull (the old getting your "bell rung") caused by the external contact that causes the concussion. Soft padding laid directly on the outside of your head wont do a whole lot to prevent that ringing mechanism from occuring. So the only sure fire way to prevent the concussion is to prevent the contact to the head. If you buy this logic, then the headgear is only a placebo that may very well foster even greater aggresive play and more of the undesired contact! This is precisely what happened in hockey when face masks were introduced, however the difference is that face masks do prevent mouth and face lacerations even when there is significantly more high sticks and aggressive contact. HS is particularly dangerous because the ball is in the air so much of the time and you have a huge disparity between the talent of players.

good points - the events that cause a concussion can seem very routine. Others that look horrific do no damage. It is like a NASCAR crash, the car is torn apart over a half mile - wreckage strewn all over the place and the driver walks away intact. OR you can have Dale Earnhardts crash will looked harmless at first. Except for the fact that the car went from 200 to 0 in a couple seconds. Or look at Trent Greens injury last weekend. His head hit a knee and came to a sudden stop, Brain piled up in front of skull. Career over? I think the headgear may help but certainly it is not a panacea and I worry that it may give a false sense of security. I prefer to work with a player after their first concussion to analyze what happened and provide them with different solutions to the technical solution they applied that led up to the concussion. The one thing that we have to remember with teenagers is that they feel invincible and immortal. I admire the fearlessness that my players showed on many occassions but at the same time it scared the bejesus out of me.

10-10-2007, 12:19 PM
Her concussed history:

1st: an elbow to the head at full speed (age 13), she was leveled.

2nd: 2 weeks later as a central mid after getting the OK by her Doctor. She attempted to win a 50/50 ball against the sweeper. The sweeper had a powerful strike to clear the ball which found her head shorty after. Season done.

3rd: Blind side head to head hit from a fullback (age 15). She was playing outside mid and had position on the ball, but the defender...I still have no idea what she was thinking when she agressively went for the ball that my daughter had trapped and controlled. Sophmore season done, maybe 7 games played.

The term concussion is often misused. A bad knock to the head is not always a concussion.

When diagnosed, what Grade were each of those concussions? Any child under 16 should receive a CT scan after a concussion. did she get one?

Even with a Grade I. two weeks off does meet standards. but from what I've read, for a U13 I'd rather see 4-6 weeks off before returning. A second concussion after only 14 days could have been very risky.

Grade I: involves only confusion
Grade II: involves confusion and anterograde amnesia (less 5min)
Grade III: involves confusion, retrograde amnesia and unconsciousness (less than 5 min)
Grade IV: involves confusion, retrograde amnesia and unconsciousness 5-10 min
Grade V: same as IV, but with unconsciousness lasting longer than ten minutes.

10-10-2007, 03:25 PM
Dr. Cantu is a well known specialist in MA and we went along with his professional recommendations. We consulted with our primary care as well as one other highly regarded Doctor. I subscribe through experience of my daughter over the past several years that there is no such thing as a mild concussion. I will not go into personal details other than to say that some multiple concussed players are significantly more likely to suffer another concussion, even with a less than obvious jaring of the brain. There is nothing more sickening than to see your child struggle to find the sidelines after such an injury. The sad part about it for her is the game that captured her heart from a very young age has been a long and difficult road. She is beautiful to watch play the game and is one of those players who slows everyone else down with her many great atributes while she seemingly speeds up. A great soccer player and an even better kid. Reality, I do believe that it is a big enough problem regarless of my daughter's plight. She recovered from an ACL tear in the middle of all this and that was a lot less concerning on my part to be totally honest. The best part of that was she couldn't sustain another concussion. She had an obvious injury to her knee and nobody was asking her to play, while that was not the same case with her other injury history. I really don't enjoy this thread, and contributing to it in the manner that I have because it makes me sick thinking about it. The only reason why I am sharing a very personal issue is that maybe it helps others understand the severity of such an injury and in no way should it be taken lightly. I can understand those that may think headgear offers a false sense of secuity for the player. That being said I do not endorse the headgear, all considered as I keep all this in perspective.

Cujo
10-11-2007, 08:11 AM
Dr. Cantu is a well known specialist in MA and we went along with his professional recommendations. We consulted with our primary care as well as one other highly regarded Doctor. I subscribe through experience of my daughter over the past several years that there is no such thing as a mild concussion. I will not go into personal details other than to say that some multiple concussed players are significantly more likely to suffer another concussion, even with a less than obvious jaring of the brain. There is nothing more sickening than to see your child struggle to find the sidelines after such an injury. The sad part about it for her is the game that captured her heart from a very young age has been a long and difficult road. She is beautiful to watch play the game and is one of those players who slows everyone else down with her many great atributes while she seemingly speeds up. A great soccer player and an even better kid. Reality, I do believe that it is a big enough problem regarless of my daughter's plight. She recovered from an ACL tear in the middle of all this and that was a lot less concerning on my part to be totally honest. The best part of that was she couldn't sustain another concussion. She had an obvious injury to her knee and nobody was asking her to play, while that was not the same case with her other injury history. I really don't enjoy this thread, and contributing to it in the manner that I have because it makes me sick thinking about it. The only reason why I am sharing a very personal issue is that maybe it helps others understand the severity of such an injury and in no way should it be taken lightly. I can understand those that may think headgear offers a false sense of secuity for the player. That being said I do not endorse the headgear, all considered as I keep all this in perspective.

Your daughter will be fine. I have had five or six concussions (the sixth was very mild and borderline) and have had no loss of cognitive abilities (don't listen to the trolls - I am speaking of evaluations by medical professionals). The thing that I found is that numbers 5 & 6 happened on very routine situations and my doctor basically said that another one could cause serious problems. For that reason I have given up league play in Hockey and Soccer. I would hate to think that your daughter needs to give up sports (that is a recommendation for qualified professionals anyway) but she will certainly need to adjust her style of play. I know I did and after another scare last winter I walked away from comptetive hockey. Head first into the boards at full speed and after that I decided it just was not worth it anymore.

That is the delicate question... how much are you willing to risk in life and to sacrifice to pursue your passions? It is always a trade-off but life is not a dress rehearsal so I have always been willing to take risks. My advice is to keep a close eye on things, work with your daughter and her coaches, listen to the professionals, and take it day by day. Good luck!!!

10-11-2007, 09:03 AM
Your daughter will be fine. I have had five or six concussions (the sixth was very mild and borderline) and have had no loss of cognitive abilities (don't listen to the trolls - I am speaking of evaluations by medical professionals). The thing that I found is that numbers 5 & 6 happened on very routine situations and my doctor basically said that another one could cause serious problems. For that reason I have given up league play in Hockey and Soccer. I would hate to think that your daughter needs to give up sports (that is a recommendation for qualified professionals anyway) but she will certainly need to adjust her style of play. I know I did and after another scare last winter I walked away from comptetive hockey. Head first into the boards at full speed and after that I decided it just was not worth it anymore.

That is the delicate question... how much are you willing to risk in life and to sacrifice to pursue your passions? It is always a trade-off but life is not a dress rehearsal so I have always been willing to take risks. My advice is to keep a close eye on things, work with your daughter and her coaches, listen to the professionals, and take it day by day. Good luck!!!

Your 6 lifetime concussions are very different from a child having 3 by U15. Let's move away from talking about this girl and make it more general.

How should a coach react to a parent who has special requirements for their child to play. Suppose a parent of a player comes up and says:

My U14 child has a history of concussions, she needs to always wear headgear and must only play in positions which will minimize risks of head contact. She needs to focus more play making and less on attacking. She needs to train a little different as well in order to minimize risk as well.

Cujo
10-11-2007, 09:49 AM
Your daughter will be fine. I have had five or six concussions (the sixth was very mild and borderline) and have had no loss of cognitive abilities (don't listen to the trolls - I am speaking of evaluations by medical professionals). The thing that I found is that numbers 5 & 6 happened on very routine situations and my doctor basically said that another one could cause serious problems. For that reason I have given up league play in Hockey and Soccer. I would hate to think that your daughter needs to give up sports (that is a recommendation for qualified professionals anyway) but she will certainly need to adjust her style of play. I know I did and after another scare last winter I walked away from comptetive hockey. Head first into the boards at full speed and after that I decided it just was not worth it anymore.

That is the delicate question... how much are you willing to risk in life and to sacrifice to pursue your passions? It is always a trade-off but life is not a dress rehearsal so I have always been willing to take risks. My advice is to keep a close eye on things, work with your daughter and her coaches, listen to the professionals, and take it day by day. Good luck!!!

Your 6 lifetime concussions are very different from a child having 3 by U15. Let's move away from talking about this girl and make it more general.

How should a coach react to a parent who has special requirements for their child to play. Suppose a parent of a player comes up and says:

My U14 child has a history of concussions, she needs to always wear headgear and must only play in positions which will minimize risks of head contact. She needs to focus more play making and less on attacking. She needs to train a little different as well in order to minimize risk as well.

I would say ok to the headgear unless there were some league ruling against it. I would also ask if this was the parents position or written direction from a medical professional. Then I think that I would sit back and watch the kid play. There are so many possibilities here that it is hard to not generalize. I have seen a few kids who play with such reckless abandon that they are an accident waiting to happen. They are a danger to themselves, their teammates, their opponents and every inanimate and animate object on or near the field. I would definitely try to accomodate the player but the bottom line is that if the style that they are forced to play makes it impossible to compete at a premier level, then they probably should consider another actitivity. But the general response is that I would give the kid an opportunity.

MASC
10-11-2007, 10:28 AM
I would have grave misgivings about the scenario posed. One has a player who has a documented potential for severe long term disability from the normal incidents of the sport.

One can not absolutely protect the player from another concussion. In the event of such what prevents the parents from claiming that the coach did not properly train the player? What prevents them from claiming that the system of play utilized put the player at significant risk.

I would not accept a player on the team with such a limitation. This is entirely different than a player with disabilities. Such a player is able to participate to 100% of their ability. There are reasonable and unreasonable risks. As a coach I feel that such a player is taking unreasonable risks and I would not want to be an accessory to such.

While playing soccer is a great thing, sometimes one has to abandon such activity if the risks are too great.

PARENTS: Sometimes the answer must be NO.

10-11-2007, 10:31 AM
Your daughter will be fine. I have had five or six concussions (the sixth was very mild and borderline) and have had no loss of cognitive abilities (don't listen to the trolls - I am speaking of evaluations by medical professionals). The thing that I found is that numbers 5 & 6 happened on very routine situations and my doctor basically said that another one could cause serious problems. For that reason I have given up league play in Hockey and Soccer. I would hate to think that your daughter needs to give up sports (that is a recommendation for qualified professionals anyway) but she will certainly need to adjust her style of play. I know I did and after another scare last winter I walked away from comptetive hockey. Head first into the boards at full speed and after that I decided it just was not worth it anymore.

That is the delicate question... how much are you willing to risk in life and to sacrifice to pursue your passions? It is always a trade-off but life is not a dress rehearsal so I have always been willing to take risks. My advice is to keep a close eye on things, work with your daughter and her coaches, listen to the professionals, and take it day by day. Good luck!!!

Your 6 lifetime concussions are very different from a child having 3 by U15. Let's move away from talking about this girl and make it more general.

How should a coach react to a parent who has special requirements for their child to play. Suppose a parent of a player comes up and says:

My U14 child has a history of concussions, she needs to always wear headgear and must only play in positions which will minimize risks of head contact. She needs to focus more play making and less on attacking. She needs to train a little different as well in order to minimize risk as well.

I would say ok to the headgear unless there were some league ruling against it. I would also ask if this was the parents position or written direction from a medical professional. Then I think that I would sit back and watch the kid play. There are so many possibilities here that it is hard to not generalize. I have seen a few kids who play with such reckless abandon that they are an accident waiting to happen. They are a danger to themselves, their teammates, their opponents and every inanimate and animate object on or near the field. I would definitely try to accomodate the player but the bottom line is that if the style that they are forced to play makes it impossible to compete at a premier level, then they probably should consider another actitivity. But the general response is that I would give the kid an opportunity.

At what point would you consider this to be a parent risking their child's health in order to seek soccer glory? Does it make a difference if the player would be one of the best players on your team?

MASC
10-11-2007, 10:47 AM
At what point would you consider this to be a parent risking their child's health in order to seek soccer glory? Does it make a difference if the player would be one of the best players on your team?
What price for glory?

I would not care if it were the best or worst player on the team. A coach is responsible for the welfare of his players.

Is a $5.00 medal (the awards given even for a national championship are not very expensive - look at the cover of the MAPLE Handbook form two years ago) that will be hidden in a drawer worth the kind of disability that would be incurred?

The liability of such a situation terrifies me:

* Must the coach inform the referees of the player's limitations?
* What happens if the referee allows a perfectly legal play in his opinion that causes permanent damage to the brain?
* When should the coach remove the player from the field? If the game starts to get a bit more physical should the player be left on the field.
* What does the coach do if the game is being played predominantly in the air?
* No one can guarantee that a kicked ball will not hit a player on the head causing another concussion.

What kind of waivers would need to be signed? Are they enforceable?

10-11-2007, 10:51 AM
How should a coach react to a parent who has special requirements for their child to play. Suppose a parent of a player comes up and says:

My U14 child has a history of concussions, she needs to always wear headgear and must only play in positions which will minimize risks of head contact. She needs to focus more play making and less on attacking. She needs to train a little different as well in order to minimize risk as well.

[


At what point does a coach or club become liable?

10-11-2007, 11:10 AM
When the liability is due to the negligence or willful misconduct of the coach. (Or in some place, gross negligence). Waivers would be helpful in such a situation, but negligence would override them.

this is a very simplistic answer to the question.....

10-11-2007, 11:12 AM
.......also, high school coaches may be better protected than club coaches in such a situation due to the employment by the public school system (limits usually apply as to those lawsuits).

Cujo
10-11-2007, 11:30 AM
Your daughter will be fine. I have had five or six concussions (the sixth was very mild and borderline) and have had no loss of cognitive abilities (don't listen to the trolls - I am speaking of evaluations by medical professionals). The thing that I found is that numbers 5 & 6 happened on very routine situations and my doctor basically said that another one could cause serious problems. For that reason I have given up league play in Hockey and Soccer. I would hate to think that your daughter needs to give up sports (that is a recommendation for qualified professionals anyway) but she will certainly need to adjust her style of play. I know I did and after another scare last winter I walked away from comptetive hockey. Head first into the boards at full speed and after that I decided it just was not worth it anymore.

That is the delicate question... how much are you willing to risk in life and to sacrifice to pursue your passions? It is always a trade-off but life is not a dress rehearsal so I have always been willing to take risks. My advice is to keep a close eye on things, work with your daughter and her coaches, listen to the professionals, and take it day by day. Good luck!!!

Your 6 lifetime concussions are very different from a child having 3 by U15. Let's move away from talking about this girl and make it more general.

How should a coach react to a parent who has special requirements for their child to play. Suppose a parent of a player comes up and says:

My U14 child has a history of concussions, she needs to always wear headgear and must only play in positions which will minimize risks of head contact. She needs to focus more play making and less on attacking. She needs to train a little different as well in order to minimize risk as well.

I would say ok to the headgear unless there were some league ruling against it. I would also ask if this was the parents position or written direction from a medical professional. Then I think that I would sit back and watch the kid play. There are so many possibilities here that it is hard to not generalize. I have seen a few kids who play with such reckless abandon that they are an accident waiting to happen. They are a danger to themselves, their teammates, their opponents and every inanimate and animate object on or near the field. I would definitely try to accomodate the player but the bottom line is that if the style that they are forced to play makes it impossible to compete at a premier level, then they probably should consider another actitivity. But the general response is that I would give the kid an opportunity.

At what point would you consider this to be a parent risking their child's health in order to seek soccer glory? Does it make a difference if the player would be one of the best players on your team?

This is where you ask for the written evaluation by a medical professional. I have dealt with players with concussions before and in every instance their family doctors are very reluctant to give them clearance before allowing them to resume play. In each case it came 4 to 6 weeks after the initial injury.

10-11-2007, 12:20 PM
This is where you ask for the written evaluation by a medical professional. I have dealt with players with concussions before and in every instance their family doctors are very reluctant to give them clearance before allowing them to resume play. In each case it came 4 to 6 weeks after the initial injury.

It's funny how much more conservative doctors need to become when dealing with waivers, but I don't blame them one bit. :?

10-11-2007, 12:24 PM
.......also, high school coaches may be better protected than club coaches in such a situation due to the employment by the public school system (limits usually apply as to those lawsuits).

To gg,onthree and Fred:

As both HS and Club coaches, would you view things differently depending on which team has the issue?

10-11-2007, 12:33 PM
I've just heard a rumor that a couple of the Stars teams are starting to wear the protective head gear. Does anyone know what age groups?

Cujo
10-11-2007, 12:53 PM
.......also, high school coaches may be better protected than club coaches in such a situation due to the employment by the public school system (limits usually apply as to those lawsuits).

let's not give the lawyers any more things to mess up. Fortunately they have had limited impact on youth sports. In part because of waivers. I think it is more than just negligence that triggers a school or coach's responsibility but gross negligence. I am not sure what the distinction is but in civil issues I think it is significant.

10-11-2007, 01:09 PM
I've just heard a rumor that a couple of the Stars teams are starting to wear the protective head gear. Does anyone know what age groups?

I don't know about the Stars, but Full90 has been offering sponsorships around the country. They are trying to make their product more visible and accepted. They've signed up a number of State Associations and under the usual terms of the agreements, Full90 Sports gets be the exclusive headguard provider and the only the head protection company that is able to offer its product as optional equipment as part of the player registration process. The associations get $$ and agrees to joint marketing.

The Club sponsorships can vary, but the basic idea is the same.

Again, I know nothing about what the Stars are doing, but Full90 is throwing a lot of offers around.

Cujo
10-11-2007, 01:32 PM
I've just heard a rumor that a couple of the Stars teams are starting to wear the protective head gear. Does anyone know what age groups?

I don't know about the Stars, but Full90 has been offering sponsorships around the country. They are trying to make their product more visible and accepted. They've signed up a number of State Associations and under the usual terms of the agreements, Full90 Sports gets be the exclusive headguard provider and the only the head protection company that is able to offer its product as optional equipment as part of the player registration process. The associations get $$ and agrees to joint marketing.

The Club sponsorships can vary, but the basic idea is the same.

Again, I know nothing about what the Stars are doing, but Full90 is throwing a lot of offers around.

1,079,115 = # of Region 1 players. That is a whole lot of simolians to be made. I wonder how much Full90 is spending lobbying lawmakers?

Follow the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

11-06-2007, 11:03 AM
Obviously headgear for soccer was just a beginning. Toddlers learning to walk now need headgear. When these kids get to be U8s, they're going to want full body armor.

http://www.thudguard.com/page_layout/m_thudguard.jpg

Learning to walk in a world of hard surfaces can turn a special moment into a heart rendering incident in a flash. It's normal for young children to sustain bumps and bruises occasionally as part of exploring; the problem is this kind of fall is very common in even the safest of homes and gardens. The damage to a falling toddler's hands and knees can be an acceptable form of pain for learning but a head injury can be traumatic for both infant and parent.

"Over 500,000 children's head injuries are recorded each year !" (DTI)
Thudguard is a revolutionary new product, an infant safety hat, designed to help absorb and reduce the impact of head injuries due to a fall or collision. It is suitable for babies and toddlers aged 7 months to 2+ years.

Click here for Thudguard WEB Site (http://www.thudguard.com/index.html)

11-06-2007, 11:16 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

11-06-2007, 11:43 AM
I am amazed that mankind has been able to survive all these years without all this protective gear!!!

Cujo
11-06-2007, 12:55 PM
I am amazed that mankind has been able to survive all these years without all this protective gear!!!

What you can't see on the helmet is the sticker that says "I play D1 MAPLE"

pitch420
11-06-2007, 01:08 PM
I am amazed that mankind has been able to survive all these years without all this protective gear!!!

What you can't see on the helmet is the sticker that says "I play D1 MAPLE"

2 funny posts! Kudo's

Us MPS parents/coaches got issued kevlar vests to protect us from all the Maple snipers.

Lets not go crazy folks, was just a joke!! :D

Cujo
11-06-2007, 02:13 PM
I am amazed that mankind has been able to survive all these years without all this protective gear!!!

What you can't see on the helmet is the sticker that says "I play D1 MAPLE"

The other sticker says: "I got yelled at by Cosgrove and soiled my diaper!!"

11-06-2007, 04:22 PM
Obviously headgear for soccer was just a beginning. Toddlers learning to walk now need headgear. When these kids get to be U8s, they're going to want full body armor.

http://www.thudguard.com/page_layout/m_thudguard.jpg

Learning to walk in a world of hard surfaces can turn a special moment into a heart rendering incident in a flash. It's normal for young children to sustain bumps and bruises occasionally as part of exploring; the problem is this kind of fall is very common in even the safest of homes and gardens. The damage to a falling toddler's hands and knees can be an acceptable form of pain for learning but a head injury can be traumatic for both infant and parent.

"Over 500,000 children's head injuries are recorded each year !" (DTI)
Thudguard is a revolutionary new product, an infant safety hat, designed to help absorb and reduce the impact of head injuries due to a fall or collision. It is suitable for babies and toddlers aged 7 months to 2+ years.

Click here for Thudguard WEB Site (http://www.thudguard.com/index.html)

I often feel like I need one of those to protect from the inevitable banging of my head against a wall when trying to have a discussion with the Great Cujeenie.

11-07-2007, 07:26 AM
I am amazed that mankind has been able to survive all these years without all this protective gear!!!

What you can't see on the helmet is the sticker that says "I play D1 MAPLE"

The other sticker says: "I got yelled at by Cosgrove and soiled my diaper!!"


Funny and witty posts are great to start the day. :lol:

11-07-2007, 09:23 AM
The more you continue to mention his name, the more you actually acknowledge he must be doing something right. If he is or was as bad as you continue to anonymously post, why do you keep bringing up his name? If someone was so awful, why reward them with publicity?

Again, MOVE ON, please.

FSM
11-19-2007, 08:53 PM
Christie Rampone, a defender on the US WNT suffered a concussion during the WWC game against Norway. The following was from an article in Fair Game magazine. I can't believe she was given the OK to go back in and play based on the description of her symptoms:


http://www.fairgamemag.com/index.php/en ... ie_rampone (http://www.fairgamemag.com/index.php/eng/past_issues/issue_10_2007/world_cup_re_cap_with_christie_rampone)


What happened to you in the Norway match? I know you came back onto the field at half time, but came off immediately before the whistle blew.

Towards the end of the half, I got hit going up for a head ball. I’m not sure exactly if it was Bri or if it was the Norwegian girl that I was marking. I didn’t see it coming and I lost vision in my right eye and I was kind of numb on my right side. I kept playing because I’ve never had a concussion before. I just thought I could play through it. Towards the end of the half the vision was really going. At halftime, I wasn’t myself and my vision was getting worse. I was seeing triple. The doc checked me out to see if I was ok. I said, “Just give me five minutes just to see if I can go.â€￾ So, I went out there in the second half and I couldn’t find the ball, I felt like I was underwater, in a bubble. I pulled myself out. I was like, “I can’t do this. This isn’t right for the team.â€￾

So they took you to the hospital and checked you out. You did have a concussion?

Yeah. I had a concussion and for some reason my spine was swollen. That’s where the numbness was coming from.

You missed the medal ceremony?

Yes, but at least there was a Rampone out there. They wouldn’t let Rylie go up and get the medal but at least a Rampone was on the field.

In spite of the concussion, you played in the first two matches against Mexico. Did you have medical clearance to play?

Yeah, I got medical clearance to play. I had done some hard workouts coming in to camp. No headaches, but obviously, after you start heading the ball ... I’ve had some symptoms coming back in my right eye and wasn’t feeling myself so that’s why I pulled out for the third game.

11-19-2007, 09:48 PM
Wow - the medical professionals and trainers rounded out what was completely incompetent WNT staffing from start to finish!

12-03-2007, 03:34 PM
Time article:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1689210,00.html

12-10-2007, 07:16 PM
Head gear and Mouth guards are just the begining. Now there is a new updated bit of protective gear. How long before MIAA requires this for soccer players.

The NuttyBuddy - Protecting the Boys

Watch the demo video on the home page: http://www.nuttybuddy.com/

Cujo
12-11-2007, 08:40 AM
Head gear and Mouth guards are just the begining. Now there is a new updated bit of protective gear. How long before MIAA requires this for soccer players.

The NuttyBuddy - Protecting the Boys

Watch the demo video on the home page: http://www.nuttybuddy.com/

When I was playing goal in the OTHSL I did not always wear a cup but as we moved up in the divisions I changed my mind after a few close calls. By D3 I was wearing one 100% of the time. In hockey you wear one 100% of the time. For baseball I only wear one when I pitch. True story - last year on the bench before a game we were discussing whether field players should wear one. The verdict was for 1st and 3rd base it would be smart. First play of the first inning our SS drilled their baserunner right in the you know where on a DP relay. Totally by accident. The runner was down for 10 minutes.

12-12-2007, 10:14 AM
Head gear and Mouth guards are just the begining. Now there is a new updated bit of protective gear. How long before MIAA requires this for soccer players.

The NuttyBuddy - Protecting the Boys

Watch the demo video on the home page: http://www.nuttybuddy.com/


This was just demo'ed on the morning news shows. Took a 90mph fast ball from three feet away. Should be a big help setting up a wall.

12-16-2007, 07:33 AM
c14t

12-16-2007, 07:33 AM
c809t

FioaMummy
01-15-2008, 02:33 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Excellent!!!!!!!!