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    Keeper's conundrum

    I was struck by Keeper's assertion that the two best teams will and should move to 1 team by U16

    Originally posted by keeper
    Originally posted by JustForFun
    Guest wrote:

    Great year for the Stars U14Gs. It must have been a big thrill for all of the families. A long hard year and a great reward. Congratulations.

    Amazing that last year Scorpions U13G were Regional Champs. This year the Stars U14G are Regional Champs. Who will it be next year? An amazing amount of talent at this age group - what would happen if they were all on the same team?
    At this level, by U16 they will and should be on one team.
    I have no problem with them joining on 1 team if that is what the girls want to do. But why is it "right" that they all go to 1 team at U16? If this the "right" thing to do it raises some interesting questions.

    If they do all go to 1 team; what happens to the 18 or so players who don't make that team?

    How does building combined entity that might have the talent to win a national title, balance against the heartache and disruption for the 1/2 of the girls that get left behind?

    How many of the girls who get left behind may be late bloomers who’s' development is considerably slowed by the disruption?

    Can the selection of the players judged to be the best of the bunch potentially result in bad chemistry and a lesser team despite the supposedly better talent?

    Aren't both teams very competitive right now and isn't having two very strong teams in an age group a viable option?

    How many families want to drive extra miles 3-4 times a week for the new super team when they are already playing on a great team?

    Etc, Etc.

    I am interested in discussing the concept that Keeper espoused when she said "At this level, by U16 they will and should be on one team." and would ask any discussion of the specific teams not come into play (these are still young girls - no good can come from discussing the specific teams- and the combination of named posters who come from those two teams and anonymous pot shot artists is a bad mix) I intentionally moved this to a new thread so as not to interfere with the Stars thread and hope that we can have a good conceptual discussion without any references to individuals coaching, playing or parenting on either team.

    #2
    Blue Devil-

    Can we include the boys in on this as well, following the same guidelines, no teams, no names, etc.?

    Comment


      #3
      Im not sure that it would be resonably possible to expect all of our state's talent to congregate on one team or if it would be either valuable or productive. The possibility problem stems mostly from the parochialism that is so much a part of our Massachusetts culture. Despite the fact that driving times and travel considerations are really comparitively quite manageable, we tend to make them seem more onerous than they are. I also think our players and their families tend to be more loyal to their clubs than you see in other parts of the country. Let's face it, you don't see the types of debates over development/recruiment on other state's forums, it is simply accepted as part of the game. Even if you could get the top 15 or so players in any age groups to end up together, I'm not sure they would experience greater success than what we have now. There is a big difference between team success and individual success. Successful teams are loaded with role players. Sure they also have stars and talents that offer match-up problems for opponents, but without the right "chemistry" and "character" you don't win, at least not at the higher levels. In some respects the designation of role player is unfair because these players are usually spectacular in their own right, but are willing to forego personal achievement for the betterment of the team. Coaches who recruit on resume alone won't find success (unless they are like UNC and they get so many stars that they can pick through them to find the right combo).

      Comment


        #4
        Let's say the two teams combined by U16, or on the boys side, the rising U15 Bolts and Blast combined, and let's say that one of these teams did win the national championship. What then? What would that mean? Of course chances are they would not win it all, as so many variables and a bit of luck play into that, and doesn't it mean more if one of the existing teams win it all for the people involved (who by the way are mostly the only people who truly care).

        We have a U10 baseball team in our town that may win the U10 Cal Ripken national championship. Part of their excitement is that it will have been a group of local boys, and not a collection from all over the state (or region). And hopefully they won't be burdened by how many of them are going to get a college scholarship!

        Comment


          #5
          U-10 National championship? Does Cal know he is associated with this??

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by child psychologist 101
            U-10 National championship? Does Cal know he is associated with this??
            OMG! What a can of worms you just opened!!

            http://www.pic4ever.com/images/za2.gif

            Comment


              #7
              child psychologist,

              Please try to stick with the main point of the post!

              I don't even like baseball or have a kid playing (and yes, I'm sure Cal has a clue).

              My point is more like this....do the kids (and the crazy parents) enjoy winning (or even participating in) MTOC or state cup more? And, unless it was a MA team, how many people can even remember what team (and from what state) won a national championship in a particular age group even 2-3 years ago?

              Comment


                #8
                Actually the idea of whether an MTOC or State Cup win is more significant is way off this topic, which I believe was whether it would be good or even possible to see a combination of the best available talent on a single club team. However, as a parent who has had children win both, I can tell you that, believe it or not, they appreciated the State Cup win greater. When I asked why the answer was simple: "its better soccer"

                Comment


                  #9
                  Joe Pa,

                  Not questioning which is "more significant" or which would be "appreciated" more.....was more of an enjoyment, experience with friends/teammates question...And it's not that far off topic, as it relates to ongoing theme of being part of something that is more of a team thing versus further and further into an "all star" scenario...To tie it back more directly, if Stars/Scorpions or Bolts/Blast did combine players to create even greater "super" teams at certain age groups, who is served by this?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Please don't kick me off the forum-

                    But there is an excellent example of this concept - the Bolts BU15 team in 2005. After U14 let's just say two very good teams merged to form the bulk of this team. They went on to win the National title. I believe they have continued to be successful, but they certainly haven't replicated their ultimate victory. Is that the goal of merging the two best teams? Are all the players still on the team? Are they happy?

                    As a boy's team they were young. It would be interesting to know how the players developed physically and psychologically. Did some of the early bloomers drop off? Did the late bloomers become the leaders?

                    Assuming they can play together as a team, one benefit of merging at this age group could be tournament play and the exposure to college coaches that goes along with it.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Blue Devil wrote:

                      If they do all go to 1 team; what happens to the 18 or so players who don't make that team?
                      Am I missing something? Would there not still be two, three or even four teams. For example the Bolts team went to the Stars so there are three teams at Stars U15G right now. I think the parents get hung up on the B team and C team thing, but the girls are not as concerned. All of the Bolts girls went to the Stars knowing there was already two other girls teams at the Stars.

                      How does building combined entity that might have the talent to win a national title, balance against the heartache and disruption for the 1/2 of the girls that get left behind?
                      I don't think anyone gets left behind. Also after U15 it is normal for some girls to decide to take a year off, or run track, or only play high school soccer, etc. Since there are already three Stars teams there will be no-one left behind.

                      Can the selection of the players judged to be the best of the bunch potentially result in bad chemistry and a lesser team despite the supposedly better talent?
                      Possibly. You will not know unless you try. The Texas Reporter said that the Stars changed to a 3-4-3 to counter the strong Texas girl's midfield. It created more opportunity for the Stars, but also left the Stars exposed. If the Stars had a stronger midfield maybe they could compete with the girls from Texas.

                      How many families want to drive extra miles 3-4 times a week for the new super team when they are already playing on a great team.
                      Maybe not at U15, but at U16 and U17 most families drive. At U16 the parents drive for one year and at U17 the players can drive themselves.

                      Joe Pa writes:

                      I also think our players and their families tend to be more loyal to their clubs than you see in other parts of the country.
                      I do not think recent history supports this statement. Didn't the Bolts players leave to follow their coaches Redmond and Okorah? Didn't the FC United boys follow their coach? Didn't the Scorpion U15G leave? I do not think the Clubs won any of these situations - the players went where they wanted to go.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        JFF wrote:
                        I do not think recent history supports this statement. Didn't the Bolts players leave to follow their coaches Redmond and Okorah? Didn't the FC United boys follow their coach? Didn't the Scorpion U15G leave? I do not think the Clubs won any of these situations - the players went where they wanted to go.

                        I wasn't saying that in all instances Mass families are always loyal to their club, only that the parochialism that is a big part of Massachusetts life extends into youth soccer and that because of this Massachusetts families tend to be more loyal than counter-parts across the country. Ultimately all parents make decisions that they think is in their and their child's best interest. When presented with an opportunity that improves their child's chances at college exposure they ussually will take it, but I do believe that they tend to be more deliberative in that decision. As for the 50% argument, I don't think any of these teams are interested in a 50/50 merger. In fact you have a lot of players on these top teams of similar talents and abilities. This means that any top team will probably only covet a small number of players from any other team. Even an equally strong team. There is no reason to replace a granny smith apple with another granny smith apple. In any age group there are probably 8-10 players that are universally accepted as superior. Certainly there is a desire to try to combine those talents and supplement them with the right complimentary parts. Obviously a state like California may have 50 players of this quality and Texas 40, meaning that you can have 4 or 5 clubs get their share and still be competitive on the regional and national stage.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          To Joe Pa:

                          I know it is a bit off topic but I too have a child who has won both a State Championship and MTOC several years apart. The MTOC win was just as difficult and fulfilling as the State Cup win. Maybe because he was older with MTOC win. MTOC played 6 games in two days. At a level that was pretty high. The only difference in the MTOC win was that we didn't travel as much during the season. Won't get into why he moved from Club to MTOC but I will tell you the season he went back to MTOC was far more fulfilling to him personally. Every experience is a new experience. Winning is winning and losing is losing. It feels great when you win and not so great when you lose. You don't sit down and say well that soccer was not as challenging. There are many talented kids who play MTOC for a variety of reasons and not all skill related. As they get older; they work; they do it to keep in shape for HS and most importantly they do it because it is fun. But it is by no means a cake walk just cause it's MTOC. Sorry if it is defensive but just my opinion and apologies for going off topic.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by forensic psychologist 12
                            .......To tie it back more directly, if Stars/Scorpions or Bolts/Blast did combine players to create even greater "super" teams at certain age groups, who is served by this?
                            The players on the team.

                            Look back at the original Stars of Mass concept and team. These were great players that came from multiple clubs to form a single team. When it happened, many thought the world was coming to an end, but youth soccer and MAPLE survived just fine and so did their former teams.

                            Do you not believe that the kids on that Stars of Mass team benefited from that move.?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              A merger like this will usually be the combining of three to five impact players from each team and retaining the best role players from the dominant or "receiving" team. Having watched Stars and South Coast - both teams could benefit from the other team's impact players - each has weaknesses or perhaps I should say lesser strengths. Then again, what team couldn't benefit from an impact player?

                              Comment

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