What is your word worth

I have been a reader on this forum for quite some time and I am a coach of a premier level team. I hear quite often club and / or coach bashing going on. Failure to deliver on promises, poor coaching, poor team, poor record, etc all seem to lead to parents changing clubs. I'll be the 1st to admit many clubs or coaches do not deliver what they promise. But what about when roles are reversed? During this time of year we see the discussion forum light up with posts on players leaving for another club or a popular coach leaving a club and players following suit. What about the parents who not only make a verbal commitment but also sign the commitment letter and then change their minds? I think this is as bad as the coach who promises a player a spot and then takes the next best thing that comes along. The grass is not always greener on the other side and constant player movement year after year is not a good development model. Too many people get wrapped up in the status of playing at a certain level within maple and lose their focus on proper development and along the way they burn many bridges and all for what? What are they teaching their children when they make a commitment and try to back out of that commitment? I come from an era when a person's word meant something and reflected upon their character. So when a parent does not live up to their word it reflects badly on their character. I am not here to bash parents or clubs or coaches but I think the whole frenzy that surrounds premier try outs are getting way out of hand and the focus should be on long term development and not short term glory

[keeper]

Re: What is your word worth

I have been a reader on this forum for quite some time and I am a coach of a premier level team. I hear quite often club and / or coach bashing going on. Failure to deliver on promises, poor coaching, poor team, poor record, etc all seem to lead to parents changing clubs. I'll be the 1st to admit many clubs or coaches do not deliver what they promise. But what about when roles are reversed? During this time of year we see the discussion forum light up with posts on players leaving for another club or a popular coach leaving a club and players following suit. What about the parents who not only make a verbal commitment but also sign the commitment letter and then change their minds? I think this is as bad as the coach who promises a player a spot and then takes the next best thing that comes along. The grass is not always greener on the other side and constant player movement year after year is not a good development model. Too many people get wrapped up in the status of playing at a certain level within maple and lose their focus on proper development and along the way they burn many bridges and all for what? What are they teaching their children when they make a commitment and try to back out of that commitment? I come from an era when a person's word meant something and reflected upon their character. So when a parent does not live up to their word it reflects badly on their character. I am not here to bash parents or clubs or coaches but I think the whole frenzy that surrounds premier try outs are getting way out of hand and the focus should be on long term development and not short term glory

It may not seem fair, but the reason for the difference in attitude is the imbalance of power and control. Clubs and Coaches are held to a higher standard because parents and players often are made to feel like pawns in a “gameâ€￾ which is not soccer. That isn’t meant to excuse the behavior by some parents, some are simply jerks. But it does explain why the standards may seem different.

Take for example a lot of the Club bashing, it’s often done by other Clubs and Coaches (sometimes pretending to be parents). It really has nothing to do with soccer; it’s about competition between Clubs. As long as that kind of stuff goes on, I doubt there will be a big shift in understanding or sympathy from parents.

The true irony of course, is that Parents and Players do have a lot more power than they believe.

You are right, of course, Toeball, in many ways. A commitment is a commitment, and the parents and player were wrong to back out.

BUT -- Part of the problem, as you mention, is the entire process which includes this whole ludicrous time crunch for decision making. Everyone (club and player) is up in the air and trying to make a determination of what's best in the shortest possible time frame, often not knowing all the facts or having the time to gather enough information.

From the parent's and player's perspective, it is a stomach turning and difficult process. When we are trying to make that determination of where the best "development" will be, there are a combination of factors that go into it, which includes not just coaching criteria and club and league play, but the other players on the team, level of commitment, competition level, etc. etc. etc.

My child was very interested in changing clubs this spring and going to a state cup winning team, with an offer on the table. But an answer had to be given in a matter of 2-3 days, and there just was not enough time to research and ask all the right questions before hand ... and yes, while maybe some of that should have been done way ahead of time if there was even the thought of leaving, often players don't find out about circumstances with their own current teams until the very last minute that would even have them consider moving. We declined the offer because we would have liked more time and didn't feel it is was right to hold a roster spot in favor of another player that wanted the position. Now we are regretting the decision and our player wants to make the move. But of course it is too late.

It sounds like you feel you have been "burned" and are angry with both the player and the family. You would've preferred the player did what we did and declined your offer hoping for the other position or a better position elsewhere. But please don't take it personally, because it sounds like you have some understanding of all the ridiculous-ness of the process and can maybe have SOME level of empathy for the player and parents thinking they ARE making the best development decision (with all of those factors weighed in). What might the club do differently next year to avoid this situation? Maybe not require that signature on the paper so quickly? The problem there is that all the other clubs are doing it too, so the club needs to keep up, but is that really a player issue? What about requiring a nonrefundable season fee at the time the commitment letter is signed so that might give the players and parents pause before signing?

You want the player to fail at the other club and come back to you begging for a spot if one is open next year, and you want to be able to say NO to teach parent/player a lesson about old school commitment. I believe in commitment too, and I would be angry too. but don't go down that road. Realize that people do things for many reasons and keep an open mind. Don't burn bridges, either way, I'm sure it was an incredibly difficult choice for this player and maybe in his mind, he was doing the right thing by choosing to go back on his original decision now, way before the season started (even though, yes he'd signed a commitment letter), rather than jumping ship midway through when his heart wanted to be elsewhere, and at least giving you some time to find another player. The players are not chattel, and the process stinks, so try not to get caught up in the bad example the parents are setting for the kid and focus on the kid himself, everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Nothing about the MAPLE system really and truly promotes development. Even as admitted on the MAPLE web site, it's a performance based league that promotes and relegates based on wins and losses.

As such, coaches will always look for better players, and players/parents will always look for for better teams.

[keeper]

Nothing about the MAPLE system really and truly promotes development. Even as admitted on the MAPLE web site, it's a performance based league that promotes and relegates based on wins and losses.

As such, coaches will always look for better players, and players/parents will always look for for better teams.

Of course that's "why" it happens, and "why" it should happen. The issue is about "how" it happens. Some do it well and others do not.




.

Nothing about the MAPLE system really and truly promotes development. Even as admitted on the MAPLE web site, it's a performance based league that promotes and relegates based on wins and losses.

As such, coaches will always look for better players, and players/parents will always look for for better teams.

Of course that's "why" it happens, and "why" it should happen. The issue is about "how" it happens. Some do it well and others do not.

Actually, the issue is "it does happen". The "why" is critically important. "How" it happens is because of the MAPLE system and the conditioning that the players and parents have undergone that feed imnto that system.

You can't fix a problem until you understand why it has occurred.

Nobody really does it "well". The stronger clubs attract the stronger kids, and if the kids stay strong, and if the club stays strong, the kids stay.




.

[keeper]

That last post was a bit confusing since they added their comments within my quote. I've reformated their post to make it a tad more clear as to who said what. We also may disagree on the "it" and "hows" and "whys" but I think the point is the same. Change happens and everyone should try and manage the process better.
---------------------------------------------

Nothing about the MAPLE system really and truly promotes development. Even as admitted on the MAPLE web site, it's a performance based league that promotes and relegates based on wins and losses.

As such, coaches will always look for better players, and players/parents will always look for for better teams.

Of course that's "why" it happens, and "why" it should happen. The issue is about "how" it happens. Some do it well and others do not.

Actually, the issue is "it does happen". The "why" is critically important. "How" it happens is because of the MAPLE system and the conditioning that the players and parents have undergone that feed imnto that system.

You can't fix a problem until you understand why it has occurred.

Nobody really does it "well". The stronger clubs attract the stronger kids, and if the kids stay strong, and if the club stays strong, the kids stay.

You are right, of course, Toeball, in many ways. A commitment is a commitment, and the parents and player were wrong to back out.

BUT -- Part of the problem, as you mention, is the entire process which includes this whole ludicrous time crunch for decision making. Everyone (club and player) is up in the air and trying to make a determination of what's best in the shortest possible time frame, often not knowing all the facts or having the time to gather enough information.

From the parent's and player's perspective, it is a stomach turning and difficult process. When we are trying to make that determination of where the best "development" will be, there are a combination of factors that go into it, which includes not just coaching criteria and club and league play, but the other players on the team, level of commitment, competition level, etc. etc. etc.

My child was very interested in changing clubs this spring and going to a state cup winning team, with an offer on the table. But an answer had to be given in a matter of 2-3 days, and there just was not enough time to research and ask all the right questions before hand ... and yes, while maybe some of that should have been done way ahead of time if there was even the thought of leaving, often players don't find out about circumstances with their own current teams until the very last minute that would even have them consider moving. We declined the offer because we would have liked more time and didn't feel it is was right to hold a roster spot in favor of another player that wanted the position. Now we are regretting the decision and our player wants to make the move. But of course it is too late.

It sounds like you feel you have been "burned" and are angry with both the player and the family. You would've preferred the player did what we did and declined your offer hoping for the other position or a better position elsewhere. But please don't take it personally, because it sounds like you have some understanding of all the ridiculous-ness of the process and can maybe have SOME level of empathy for the player and parents thinking they ARE making the best development decision (with all of those factors weighed in). What might the club do differently next year to avoid this situation? Maybe not require that signature on the paper so quickly? The problem there is that all the other clubs are doing it too, so the club needs to keep up, but is that really a player issue? What about requiring a nonrefundable season fee at the time the commitment letter is signed so that might give the players and parents pause before signing?

You want the player to fail at the other club and come back to you begging for a spot if one is open next year, and you want to be able to say NO to teach parent/player a lesson about old school commitment. I believe in commitment too, and I would be angry too. but don't go down that road. Realize that people do things for many reasons and keep an open mind. Don't burn bridges, either way, I'm sure it was an incredibly difficult choice for this player and maybe in his mind, he was doing the right thing by choosing to go back on his original decision now, way before the season started (even though, yes he'd signed a commitment letter), rather than jumping ship midway through when his heart wanted to be elsewhere, and at least giving you some time to find another player. The players are not chattel, and the process stinks, so try not to get caught up in the bad example the parents are setting for the kid and focus on the kid himself, everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Great reply with a lot of truths. Just to fill you in this player had tried out for 3 clubs and only I offered him a spot...the other 2 did not. Now one of those other clubs is coming calling because they did not get all the players they anticipated getting. So, as the parent would you want your child going to a club that originally rejected you where you'll probably be #17 or 18 on their roster or do you want to be on a team where you'll be a starter and play a lot. Assume the coaching and training is equal in either situation even though I feel my training is better. They are saying they want to switch only because it's a higher division.

Kids are not cattle and they do not belong to any one besides their parents. I do care deeply about this child as I have known him and the family for a while. Can't help but feel deeply hurt but the bottom line is what is best for the child. I don't see that here. And please stop talking about the money part of it. I wish the money was just taken out of the equation. I mean seriously do we expect money to buy us happiness with our child's soccer development. And by the way I volunteer to coach premier ( I take my coaches fee and put it back into the team to cover other expenses such as tournaments, indoor training, etc ). To me it should just be about development and enjoyment of the game

[Cujo]

Nothing about the MAPLE system really and truly promotes development. Even as admitted on the MAPLE web site, it's a performance based league that promotes and relegates based on wins and losses.

As such, coaches will always look for better players, and players/parents will always look for for better teams.

I have really begun to question the value of MAPLE. I know just as many kids that have succeeded as players outside the league as within it. It benefitted my daughter but looking back she could have done it without MAPLE. The ages of 12 to 14 are the most dysfunctional years for MAPLE players. Lots of players walk away from the game because of the games played by parents, coaches, clubs and DOC's.

You are right, of course, Toeball, in many ways. A commitment is a commitment, and the parents and player were wrong to back out.

BUT -- Part of the problem, as you mention, is the entire process which includes this whole ludicrous time crunch for decision making. Everyone (club and player) is up in the air and trying to make a determination of what's best in the shortest possible time frame, often not knowing all the facts or having the time to gather enough information.

From the parent's and player's perspective, it is a stomach turning and difficult process. When we are trying to make that determination of where the best "development" will be, there are a combination of factors that go into it, which includes not just coaching criteria and club and league play, but the other players on the team, level of commitment, competition level, etc. etc. etc.

My child was very interested in changing clubs this spring and going to a state cup winning team, with an offer on the table. But an answer had to be given in a matter of 2-3 days, and there just was not enough time to research and ask all the right questions before hand ... and yes, while maybe some of that should have been done way ahead of time if there was even the thought of leaving, often players don't find out about circumstances with their own current teams until the very last minute that would even have them consider moving. We declined the offer because we would have liked more time and didn't feel it is was right to hold a roster spot in favor of another player that wanted the position. Now we are regretting the decision and our player wants to make the move. But of course it is too late.

It sounds like you feel you have been "burned" and are angry with both the player and the family. You would've preferred the player did what we did and declined your offer hoping for the other position or a better position elsewhere. But please don't take it personally, because it sounds like you have some understanding of all the ridiculous-ness of the process and can maybe have SOME level of empathy for the player and parents thinking they ARE making the best development decision (with all of those factors weighed in). What might the club do differently next year to avoid this situation? Maybe not require that signature on the paper so quickly? The problem there is that all the other clubs are doing it too, so the club needs to keep up, but is that really a player issue? What about requiring a nonrefundable season fee at the time the commitment letter is signed so that might give the players and parents pause before signing?

You want the player to fail at the other club and come back to you begging for a spot if one is open next year, and you want to be able to say NO to teach parent/player a lesson about old school commitment. I believe in commitment too, and I would be angry too. but don't go down that road. Realize that people do things for many reasons and keep an open mind. Don't burn bridges, either way, I'm sure it was an incredibly difficult choice for this player and maybe in his mind, he was doing the right thing by choosing to go back on his original decision now, way before the season started (even though, yes he'd signed a commitment letter), rather than jumping ship midway through when his heart wanted to be elsewhere, and at least giving you some time to find another player. The players are not chattel, and the process stinks, so try not to get caught up in the bad example the parents are setting for the kid and focus on the kid himself, everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Great reply with a lot of truths. Just to fill you in this player had tried out for 3 clubs and only I offered him a spot...the other 2 did not. Now one of those other clubs is coming calling because they did not get all the players they anticipated getting. So, as the parent would you want your child going to a club that originally rejected you where you'll probably be #17 or 18 on their roster or do you want to be on a team where you'll be a starter and play a lot. Assume the coaching and training is equal in either situation even though I feel my training is better. They are saying they want to switch only because it's a higher division.

Kids are not cattle and they do not belong to any one besides their parents. I do care deeply about this child as I have known him and the family for a while. Can't help but feel deeply hurt but the bottom line is what is best for the child. I don't see that here. And please stop talking about the money part of it. I wish the money was just taken out of the equation. I mean seriously do we expect money to buy us happiness with our child's soccer development. And by the way I volunteer to coach premier ( I take my coaches fee and put it back into the team to cover other expenses such as tournaments, indoor training, etc ). To me it should just be about development and enjoyment of the game

Yes, it sounds like they ARE making a poor decision all around, and the family will be sorry down the road, but that's how you learn things in life. But of course you can't be sure of this either, maybe things will work out just rosy for this player. Instead of reacting, have you tried talking about this with them and pointing out all the inconsistencies in their decision and the long run better place for their kid to become the best soccer player he can be? If you are friendly with this family then why isn't that the approach you are taking? They might see things about the other club/team you don't, but if you are truly upset that this is hurting your team (and the kid in question, who you say you care about), then you need(ed) to swallow your pride and have a reasonable discussion. If you tried or just are too annoyed or it's too late, then you need to chalk it up to another soccer soul lost.

Not sure what you mean by the money thing (if that was something from my original post that offended you) - I was trying to offer suggestions for preventing this kind of thing happening in the future, and I wasn't talking about the amounts anyone pays or what the fees go towards, only that if a club requires a $750 deposit simultaneously with signing the commitment letter and a spot is not taken and not guaranteed until that (nonrefundable) check is cashed, then believe me, as a parent, a family is going to think long and hard about committing and is going to either make sure it's absolutely the best decision and/or be forced to stay with the commitment (which might not be such a bad thing, right)? I'll bet you a lot more roster spots would remain open at many clubs throughout the summer if this were the case, and I think everyone would benefit from expanding that time frame out a few weeks vs a few days.

Serious players want to play on the very best teams they can, with players of equal or better ability, and against the best competition they can. Isn't that one of the key ways to become a better player? Maybe this kid has more confidence and faith in his ability than you do and wants to give it a go and prove himself on this "better" team and wants to (good for him) work his tail off to try to earn a starting spot there because he has the confidence to at least try.

[Fabio]

Re: What is your word worth

I have been a reader on this forum for quite some time and I am a coach of a premier level team. I hear quite often club and / or coach bashing going on. Failure to deliver on promises, poor coaching, poor team, poor record, etc all seem to lead to parents changing clubs. I'll be the 1st to admit many clubs or coaches do not deliver what they promise. But what about when roles are reversed? During this time of year we see the discussion forum light up with posts on players leaving for another club or a popular coach leaving a club and players following suit. What about the parents who not only make a verbal commitment but also sign the commitment letter and then change their minds? I think this is as bad as the coach who promises a player a spot and then takes the next best thing that comes along. The grass is not always greener on the other side and constant player movement year after year is not a good development model. Too many people get wrapped up in the status of playing at a certain level within maple and lose their focus on proper development and along the way they burn many bridges and all for what? What are they teaching their children when they make a commitment and try to back out of that commitment? I come from an era when a person's word meant something and reflected upon their character. So when a parent does not live up to their word it reflects badly on their character. I am not here to bash parents or clubs or coaches but I think the whole frenzy that surrounds premier try outs are getting way out of hand and the focus should be on long term development and not short term glory

As a parent, I feel Toeball's pain. I have seen how many of these parents behave. By way of example, and believe me this is only the latest chapter in a long saga, here is what is happening right now.

My child's team had a very good year. Certainly top four in the state and arguably second best. Parents and players were thrilled. Best they had done in a few years since a raft of players left for a greener pasture. The whispering started at the state cup, at both the player and the parent level. "Are you staying next year?" We had no hesitation in saying that we had been pleased with the coaching, support from the club, and the team as a whole, and would be returning (in the same vein, we had no problem in telling other parents and coaches that we would be looking around in a previous year when things were not so happy).

Players and parents are thrilled! A new coach is named and several of the long term families in the club fall all over themselves telling all of us how great the new coach is and how lucky we are! They are thrilled that the team will probably be even better next year!

Then word comes up about some of the realignments that have been talked about in this forum. Our child gets contacted from two clubs about coming to play for them. Flattering as it is, we are proud when our player tells them that he has given his word to his teammates about coming back and will honor the commitment. Goes without saying that he would never expect that any teammates making a similar commitment would then do otherwise.

In the meantime, another family lobbies everyone on the team to stay together and come back next year, saying nice things about the team and what they accomplished this year.

Tryouts come and what kids are considering jumping ship? The two familes who fell all over themselves about the prospects for next year with the new coach, plus the family that lobbied everyone to stay put. Of course, once one jumps ship, that seems to give permission to others. I struggle with the feeling that some of these people actually take active steps to keep the current team frozen, so if their player chooses to come back the team will be at least as strong as the previous year, while at the same time looking around for new options. I know that sounds cynical, by how else do you rationalize people doing these things? If you don't want to be honest about looking around, fine. Not our style, but its a free country. But don't run your mouth leading people to believe that everything is great and everyone should stay put. Just STFU.

I am sure that there are some on this forum who see no problem at all with this kind of behavior. I am aware of a few people in my profession with similar ethics, but eventually they disappear because you cannot operate with this lack of integrity for long. The problem is that there are not enough clubs and coaches who are willing to cut players loose who behave with this kind of integrity.

Oh...and before anyone responds that I am just upset that my player didn't jump when invited and now wish so as the team loses players. Not true! The only thing that would make me happier about staying would be if the coach calls the players that are still on the fence and tells them that he is revoking his offer. Even an occasional professional coach will take a loss to make a point.

The Amish have a practice called shunning. The older I get, the more I seem to appreciate it.

[Cujo]

Serious players want to play on the very best teams they can, with players of equal or better ability, and against the best competition they can. Isn't that one of the key ways to become a better player? Maybe this kid has more confidence and faith in his ability than you do and wants to give it a go and prove himself on this "better" team and wants to (good for him) work his tail off to try to earn a starting spot there because he has the confidence to at least try.

A fair post but it should be amended by adding the word parent after player.

Serious players want to play on the very best teams they can, with players of equal or better ability, and against the best competition they can. Isn't that one of the key ways to become a better player? Maybe this kid has more confidence and faith in his ability than you do and wants to give it a go and prove himself on this "better" team and wants to (good for him) work his tail off to try to earn a starting spot there because he has the confidence to at least try.

A fair post but it should be amended by adding the word parent after player.

Right, because a kid can't have a mind of his own, all parents are evil and the evil parents must be brainwashing the kid with their perception of his greatness. KIDS decide these things in the end, NOT all parents are pushy "soccer moms" Cujo.

Serious players want to play on the very best teams they can, with players of equal or better ability, and against the best competition they can. Isn't that one of the key ways to become a better player? Maybe this kid has more confidence and faith in his ability than you do and wants to give it a go and prove himself on this "better" team and wants to (good for him) work his tail off to try to earn a starting spot there because he has the confidence to at least try.

A fair post but it should be amended by adding the word parent after player.

Not it shouldn't. Not in every case. Many kids I know make their own decisions. I have since I was U14. My parents told me they were staying out of it. They were happy to support with rides, arrangements, and money, but where I played was my decision.

Are there some bad parents out there? Sure. Bit your stereotyping is just wrong.