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Realistic GPA and Test Scores needed to play at some schools

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    Realistic GPA and Test Scores needed to play at some schools

    Realistically, what kind of scores are needed to play college soccer. We all know the bare minimum GPA is something like a 2.2 or something but what if you're looking at some D1/D3 schools that are a little higher on the academic level?

    Do you really need a 4.0 and 2100+ SAT scores to play at somewhere like Tufts? How about schools like Harvard or Princeton, do you really need straight A's, 7 AP courses, 2300 SAT, 700+ SAT II's? What are the realistic grades that one needs to have, given they are a good player and the coach wants them. I'm not talking about low-end schools, but maybe IVY or NESCAC.

    I'm really confused on the scores you need to be "admittable" at some high academically schools. Does a player's grade need to be extremely close to a regular admitted applicant or can a player's grade be significantly lower than the regular admitted applicant?

    For example, if a Tufts coach wanted a player but he had something like a 3.0 GPA (average GPA at Tufts is around 3.7ish) and 1900 SATs, could he still be admitted?

    Another example, if a Harvard coach wanted a player but he had something like a 3.5 GPA (average GPA is around 3.8ish?) and 2000 SATs, could he still be admitted?

    #2
    Look at www.collegedata.com. That site gives you a spread of sats and gpas for each school. It might not be 100% on the money but it will allow your child to put together their safety, realistic, reach list. Just know that you tend to get your best packages from schools that you would label as a safety choice from both an athletic and academic perspective.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: SATs, seems like an applicant can be 50 points below a school's median score and be accepted if a desired athlete. The stronger a player they are, the more below the median they could be. Not sure how this translates to GPA, and actually class rank seems of more interest than GPA.

      Comment


        #4
        The Ivies and NESCAC each have their own set of recruiting rules.

        For the Ivies, google "academic index". There are also books about athletic recruiting for the Ivies.

        Look at the NESCAC Women thread on TS for some info on the NESCAC system.

        College confidential has a lot of good info on their discussion boards.

        Comment


          #5
          The bulk of information discussed on this site deals with D1 and NESCAC (D3) womens. Obviously this is a very small porttion of the overall college soccer world, where the men and non-NESCAC D3 women make up the bulk of players competing in college from Massachusetts. I won't discuss the men as it is very different than the girls D1 when it comes to recruiting.

          For the women in D1, there is a wide range of options. Obviously the most demanding academic (admissions) schools are the Ivies. As was said above, they have a formal procedure that requires athletic admits to fall within a certain percentage of the mean acceptances (in respect to academic index). It is different for each school with Princeton, Harvard and Yale being most selective and Cornell being the least selective.

          For the rest of D1, it is absolutely individualized... for both the school and the player. So a YNT player could get admitted to Stanford with an AI little better than the NCAA minimums, but a lesser player will need to practically meet the regular admissions criteria. Schools like BC, Notre Dame and Georgetown pride themselves on their stringent admissions requirements for athletes, but those limits are self-imposed and can be softened for special circumstances. The best advice? ASK THE COACH IMMEDIATELY!!! Most D1 schools will require a prospect to provide a transcript and copies of SAT/ ACT scores for Admissions review before finalizing a verbal commit, but realistically how worried can they be if they are entering into commitment agreements prior to the end of sophomore year??

          Remember that there is a big difference between being acepted to Pratt School of Engineering at Duke and as an undeclared. Most D1 recruits are required to apply UND. and spend there first couple years taking institutional requirements before selecting a major in their Jr. year. Its still a degree from Duke (or where-ever), but ask the coach how realistic it is to apply for entry and immediately matriculate in a spcific (and demanding) major. Chances are that the student will be encouraged (or required) to apply undeclared. Not a huge probelm, but know which majors do not allow intra-university transfers, because they will not be options, no matter how well the student performs in the classroom.

          Do D1 schools routinely assist recruits with admissions? Absolutely, and since the course offereings at many of these bigger schools (like UVA, Michigan or UNC) are extensive and varied, its a little easier to find your niche (and avoid killer courses) than at smaller schools with similar academic reputations. However, as discussed above, it is rare for the Athletic Department to try to help an applicant gain admission to a specific desirable program, like nursing or engineering. It happens, but if you are hell bent on one of those types of programs, D1 may not be your best option. If you do go that direction demand honesty from the coach about how admissions, course selection and the likelihood of conflicts will be handled.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
            The bulk of information discussed on this site deals with D1 and NESCAC (D3) womens. Obviously this is a very small porttion of the overall college soccer world, where the men and non-NESCAC D3 women make up the bulk of players competing in college from Massachusetts. I won't discuss the men as it is very different than the girls D1 when it comes to recruiting.

            For the women in D1, there is a wide range of options. Obviously the most demanding academic (admissions) schools are the Ivies. As was said above, they have a formal procedure that requires athletic admits to fall within a certain percentage of the mean acceptances (in respect to academic index). It is different for each school with Princeton, Harvard and Yale being most selective and Cornell being the least selective.

            For the rest of D1, it is absolutely individualized... for both the school and the player. So a YNT player could get admitted to Stanford with an AI little better than the NCAA minimums, but a lesser player will need to practically meet the regular admissions criteria. Schools like BC, Notre Dame and Georgetown pride themselves on their stringent admissions requirements for athletes, but those limits are self-imposed and can be softened for special circumstances. The best advice? ASK THE COACH IMMEDIATELY!!! Most D1 schools will require a prospect to provide a transcript and copies of SAT/ ACT scores for Admissions review before finalizing a verbal commit, but realistically how worried can they be if they are entering into commitment agreements prior to the end of sophomore year??

            Remember that there is a big difference between being acepted to Pratt School of Engineering at Duke and as an undeclared. Most D1 recruits are required to apply UND. and spend there first couple years taking institutional requirements before selecting a major in their Jr. year. Its still a degree from Duke (or where-ever), but ask the coach how realistic it is to apply for entry and immediately matriculate in a spcific (and demanding) major. Chances are that the student will be encouraged (or required) to apply undeclared. Not a huge probelm, but know which majors do not allow intra-university transfers, because they will not be options, no matter how well the student performs in the classroom.

            Do D1 schools routinely assist recruits with admissions? Absolutely, and since the course offereings at many of these bigger schools (like UVA, Michigan or UNC) are extensive and varied, its a little easier to find your niche (and avoid killer courses) than at smaller schools with similar academic reputations. However, as discussed above, it is rare for the Athletic Department to try to help an applicant gain admission to a specific desirable program, like nursing or engineering. It happens, but if you are hell bent on one of those types of programs, D1 may not be your best option. If you do go that direction demand honesty from the coach about how admissions, course selection and the likelihood of conflicts will be handled.
            Great post. What about D3 schools? Can the coaching staff of a D3 school have much of an effect on the acceptance of a player as a D1 school coaching staff? You mentioned the non-IVY D1's such as Duke or Stanford where if the player is good and desired, he doesn't need a 4.0 and 2400 SATs.

            What if it's not a NESCAC, but still a D3 school? How about somewhere like NYU, Carnegie Mellon or Brandeis University? Pretty good colleges academically, but they aren't D1 schools, but rather D3 schools. Can the coaching staff still have a major impact on whether a player gets admitted or not?

            My friend's son isn't too great of a student because he "messed" up his freshmen and sophomore year's grades but he is looking to play at some D3 schools that are high-end soccer and high-end academics. He has something like a 3.0 with 1800 SATs, can he still play at somewhere like Tufts, NYU or Brandeis? Obviously, given that the coach wants him.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
              Great post. What about D3 schools? Can the coaching staff of a D3 school have much of an effect on the acceptance of a player as a D1 school coaching staff? You mentioned the non-IVY D1's such as Duke or Stanford where if the player is good and desired, he doesn't need a 4.0 and 2400 SATs.

              What if it's not a NESCAC, but still a D3 school? How about somewhere like NYU, Carnegie Mellon or Brandeis University? Pretty good colleges academically, but they aren't D1 schools, but rather D3 schools. Can the coaching staff still have a major impact on whether a player gets admitted or not?

              My friend's son isn't too great of a student because he "messed" up his freshmen and sophomore year's grades but he is looking to play at some D3 schools that are high-end soccer and high-end academics. He has something like a 3.0 with 1800 SATs, can he still play at somewhere like Tufts, NYU or Brandeis? Obviously, given that the coach wants him.
              Maybe Brandeis, as Brandeis coach seems to have a lot of leeway with admissions, but no chance in hell at Tufts or NYU.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                Maybe Brandeis, as Brandeis coach seems to have a lot of leeway with admissions, but no chance in hell at Tufts or NYU.
                This response is dead on. Depends on the school and the admissions standards and they vary dramatically.

                At most D3 and better academic D1 colleges there is a band of accepted student GPA and test scores and the student athlete needs to fit in that band, the higher within the band the better. Fall outside of the band and the coach likely cannot get the player in no matter what. IVY's have their own system on an average point scale of the recruited class in each sport so a player can be well below the average provided the coach has enough well above to offset that one below but the player is at risk of another player that better fits all the time.

                As stated the admissions dept processing and approval before the commitment is critical and unless the player is in national or regional pool the player better know beforehand whether the school is a big reach or not before bothering the coach in the first place. There are plenty of sources - Princeton Review among them - to find this information.

                With few exceptions in soccer, particularly girls soccer, the idea of getting a player into a great school with grades that are not good is a myth unless the player is in the national or perhaps regional pool or the family is capable of making major financial contributions.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                  With few exceptions in soccer, particularly girls soccer, the idea of getting a player into a great school with grades that are not good is a myth unless the player is in the national or perhaps regional pool or the family is capable of making major financial contributions.
                  And why would anyone want to get a kid with grades and scores that are "not good" into a high-end academic school? I have a kid in the 2100 range, with A- grades, 9 AP courses, ranked #6 or #7 in his large high school class, and I know he does not belong at Harvard or Yale or Amherst. If he was good enough at soccer it's possible soccer could get him in, but I know he would struggle just to keep his head above water. He will be more than challenged at a low to mid-tier NESCAC or similar school. Other than parental obsession with the biggest brand name possible, there is no reason to push a kid with a 1850 or even 1950 and B+ or lower grades into a school where they are so inferior academically from jump street. Can a kid find a way to survive on the fringes of such an institution, hand-picking courses where he can grind out a C+? Perhaps. But why would you do that to a kid? I am blown away that no ones asks these questions. Every thread, and most posters, seem to be singularly focused on what strings they can pull and the absolute minimum standards for scoring a lottery-lucky admissions decision at schools where their kid likely will be thoroughly miserable. And this is also so sad because there are so many wonderful schools where the kid would be a great fit. Everyone should do themselves a favor and read 40 Colleges That Change Lives.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                    And why would anyone want to get a kid with grades and scores that are "not good" into a high-end academic school? I have a kid in the 2100 range, with A- grades, 9 AP courses, ranked #6 or #7 in his large high school class, and I know he does not belong at Harvard or Yale or Amherst. If he was good enough at soccer it's possible soccer could get him in, but I know he would struggle just to keep his head above water. He will be more than challenged at a low to mid-tier NESCAC or similar school. Other than parental obsession with the biggest brand name possible, there is no reason to push a kid with a 1850 or even 1950 and B+ or lower grades into a school where they are so inferior academically from jump street. Can a kid find a way to survive on the fringes of such an institution, hand-picking courses where he can grind out a C+? Perhaps. But why would you do that to a kid? I am blown away that no ones asks these questions. Every thread, and most posters, seem to be singularly focused on what strings they can pull and the absolute minimum standards for scoring a lottery-lucky admissions decision at schools where their kid likely will be thoroughly miserable. And this is also so sad because there are so many wonderful schools where the kid would be a great fit. Everyone should do themselves a favor and read 40 Colleges That Change Lives.
                    This has to be the all time saddest post I have ever read on this site. It is a shame that a child with such success is now limited by the unfounded anxieties of his / her parents. Who do you think actually attends Harvard, etc.? Do you think every student there is genius? Yes, they all have great stats. But what about other factors for success like common sense, perception, empathy, hard work, integrity, etc. etc. Need I remind you that the most of successful students from these elite institutions are more like your child than the 2400 SAT students that you fear.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                      This has to be the all time saddest post I have ever read on this site. It is a shame that a child with such success is now limited by the unfounded anxieties of his / her parents. Who do you think actually attends Harvard, etc.? Do you think every student there is genius? Yes, they all have great stats. But what about other factors for success like common sense, perception, empathy, hard work, integrity, etc. etc. Need I remind you that the most of successful students from these elite institutions are more like your child than the 2400 SAT students that you fear.
                      Bravo - great post.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                        This has to be the all time saddest post I have ever read on this site. It is a shame that a child with such success is now limited by the unfounded anxieties of his / her parents. Who do you think actually attends Harvard, etc.? Do you think every student there is genius? Yes, they all have great stats. But what about other factors for success like common sense, perception, empathy, hard work, integrity, etc. etc. Need I remind you that the most of successful students from these elite institutions are more like your child than the 2400 SAT students that you fear.
                        I agree 100%. I learned long ago never to sell my kids short in both soccer and academics. I may think they might not have what it takes to make a particular team or gain admissions to a particular school, but if they want to try out or apply, I am happy to support them. The teams and academic institutions have processes they go through to see who makes it. I let those processes run their course. Sometimes the kids make the team or gain acceptance to a school when I don't expect it. Like the poster above said, I don't want my "unfounded anxieties" to limit their horizons.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                          I agree 100%. I learned long ago never to sell my kids short in both soccer and academics. I may think they might not have what it takes to make a particular team or gain admissions to a particular school, but if they want to try out or apply, I am happy to support them. The teams and academic institutions have processes they go through to see who makes it. I let those processes run their course. Sometimes the kids make the team or gain acceptance to a school when I don't expect it. Like the poster above said, I don't want my "unfounded anxieties" to limit their horizons.
                          I think the poster was on target but used a bad set of facts. If the poster had said his child had a 2.6 GPS and 1570 SAT scores then I hope all of you would agree that they would have set the goals of the child lower than IVY and top NESCAC schools or other top 20 national university or colleges. Because that description of student has absolute failure writtn all over them attending that level of academic school. A 3.3 GPA and 1900 SAT with athletics at those schools would be fine for a motivated kid, but the motivationg and focus would be in question when the overwhelming majority of their fellow students were highly motivated academically and already high or over achievers. There is a valid point that the majority of parents on this forum talk about using soccer to get their kid into a top academic school instead of a school that their kid will love and be happy at. There are plenty of schools that provide a great education and opportunities for a kid other than a top 20 academic institution. Not every success story in the world - and actually far less than you think - attended Harvard, Stanford, Williams, Amherst, Emory, Chicago, etc.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                            This has to be the all time saddest post I have ever read on this site. It is a shame that a child with such success is now limited by the unfounded anxieties of his / her parents. Who do you think actually attends Harvard, etc.? Do you think every student there is genius? Yes, they all have great stats. But what about other factors for success like common sense, perception, empathy, hard work, integrity, etc. etc. Need I remind you that the most of successful students from these elite institutions are more like your child than the 2400 SAT students that you fear.
                            Actually this post and the next few that followed are the saddest ever because you all are clinging to something like the majority on the forum and insisting that "best possible school you can get into" -- and that includes by hook or crook, PG, gap, 15 SAT re-takes, buying a building, etc -- equals best possible outcome for your kid. You entirely missed the point. Believe me, my kid applied to enough schools to get turned by a couple. We know where his ceiling was, so no worries there my friends. I graduated from a top 10 LAC and have 3 graduate degrees. I have a vague idea about the kind of student that goes to Harvard. They accepted 6% of applicants last year. That's 6% of a pool where 95% of the pool are well over 2100 and one of the top 2 or 3 students in their high school class. Many valedictorians and salutatorians with 2200+ SATs get turned down. My kid was not a competitive applicant there, and certainly an 1850 with a 3.5 has no business there. And it's not about whether they can get in. It's about whether it's the best place for that kid.

                            And btw, parents love to soothe themselves by taking a shot at the truly superior kids by suggesting that if they have 4.0s and 2350 SATs they must not have "common sense, perception, empathy, hard work, integrity, etc. etc." All I can say to that is, you wish. And to suggest that my kid was limited by parental anxiety is utterly preposterous. My kid is at a great school and flourishing. You can rest easy now.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Unregistered View Post
                              This has to be the all time saddest post I have ever read on this site. It is a shame that a child with such success is now limited by the unfounded anxieties of his / her parents. Who do you think actually attends Harvard, etc.? Do you think every student there is genius? Yes, they all have great stats. But what about other factors for success like common sense, perception, empathy, hard work, integrity, etc. etc. Need I remind you that the most of successful students from these elite institutions are more like your child than the 2400 SAT students that you fear.
                              True but if you are playing soccer your available time to study will be much less than the students who are not playing a D1 sport.

                              Comment

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