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06-13-2007, 09:05 AM
The goals for our kids as far as soccer is concerned has always been to have fun and work at something they enjoy. We have no illusions about a full ride D1 scholarship or playing at UNC. That being said, our kids would like to play in college. So, the question is: is there sufficient info out there to make a rough projection whether and at what level youth players might be able to play in college? I assume there must be some historical data somewhere but don't know where to look. Maybe coaches can use their personal experience as a rough barometer and provide some guidance. For example, I'm guessing that if you are in the National pool at U17 it's likely you will play at a top level D1 school. However, how about if you play for a team that plays in a regional premier league? How about for a D1 team, D2 team, etc. That is, could a solid MAPLE D1 player find a roster spot at a D3 school? Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. For the sake of discussion, please assume that the grades, SATs, etc. are excellent so that we are not talking about an exemption because of athletic ability.

sir alex
06-13-2007, 09:19 AM
My team was a top 4 D1 Maple team, played region 1 premier league at 17's and came in 4th, was state finalist at 16's, state champions at 17's, semifinalists at 18's. Out of my 18 players, 17 went on to play in college: 5 currently play D1 (Hartford, LIU, Miami of Ohio, and Davidson), 4 play D2 (St Rose, Assumption, Merrimack, and Southern New Hampshire), and 8 play D3 (Trinity, Emory, Carnegie Mellon, Clark, Bates, and Umass Dartmouth). The other one is playing Hockey at Dartmouth and one is playing intramuarals at Umass.

Much of it depends on the combination of the school and the soccer program. For instance, one of my players went to Middlebury and didn't make the team. She transferred her sophomore year because she missed the sport dearly and is playing at Emory in Georgia with her sister. Played and started every game. Who knows why she didn't even make the Middlebury team. There is likely a place for most players that are dead set on continueing playing. But a lot of it depends on the combination of school and sport.

Good luck.

FSM
06-13-2007, 09:27 AM
Sir Alex, what class are your players entering this year? I'm guessing juniors. Have any stopped playing? I'm just wondering based on the 50% drop out rate a poster from Connecticut gave. Also, any feedback from the player on the intramural play at UMass?

06-13-2007, 09:42 AM
We are going through the college recruitment world right now. My daughter currently is a U17 Maple 1 player. I have learned a lot in the last year but have been told by college club coaches that there are very few mid to top Div. 1 players in MA. Saying that a lot of Div.1 lower program are not as strong as the Northeast 10 conference which those teams are in Sir ALex email above. You really need to start in Sophmore year. Start by contacting coaches in emails and then follow up with DVD etc. I have learned you need marketing, marketing & marketing. I found if you show a valid interest in a college that they are exciting also. The biggest problem I see is that parents and kids think they can play at UNC, BC, BU etc. Yes maybe if you are one of the top players in the state. So you need to be reasonable in your search. My daughter has received interest in Div. 11 schools and some high 3's and that is fine with her. I also have seen parents and players pick a school for soccer first. Don't do that. Find a school for academics first and then see if soccer would be a fit. Just my thoughts as we are going throught he process now.

sir alex
06-13-2007, 09:54 AM
Sir Alex, what class are your players entering this year? I'm guessing juniors. Have any stopped playing? I'm just wondering based on the 50% drop out rate a poster from Connecticut gave. Also, any feedback from the player on the intramural play at UMass?4 will be seniors (CMU, St Rose, and LIU). The rest are to-be Juniors. TIME FLIES!!! I am happy to say 100% are still playing. One did transfer from Wheaton to Clark between freshman and sophomore year because it wasn't the right fit for her. Nice percentage. Actually - no feedback on the level of play at Umass Intramuarals - just that it's a lot of fun. I think she's also playing ultimate frisbee.

teskicks
06-13-2007, 10:05 AM
One thing you might try is to look at the club websites. Many clubs post a list of their alumni and what schools they are attending or have attended.

Blue Devil
06-13-2007, 10:07 AM
We are going through the college recruitment world right now. My daughter currently is a U17 Maple 1 player. I have learned a lot in the last year but have been told by college club coaches that there are very few mid to top Div. 1 players in MA. Saying that a lot of Div.1 lower program are not as strong as the Northeast 10 conference which those teams are in Sir ALex email above. You really need to start in Sophmore year. Start by contacting coaches in emails and then follow up with DVD etc. I have learned you need marketing, marketing & marketing. I found if you show a valid interest in a college that they are exciting also. The biggest problem I see is that parents and kids think they can play at UNC, BC, BU etc. Yes maybe if you are one of the top players in the state. So you need to be reasonable in your search. My daughter has received interest in Div. 11 schools and some high 3's and that is fine with her. I also have seen parents and players pick a school for soccer first. Don't do that. Find a school for academics first and then see if soccer would be a fit. Just my thoughts as we are going throught he process now.


Anonymous - here is a list of Massachusetts players and where they are going to college. Their club is listed and these girls come mainly from current U 18 but there are 10% - 15% who are current U 17 players. So if you wanted to track back to team to school you could do the work.

Good luck to you and your daughter


New College First Name Last Name Pos St/Ctry Hometown HS/Prev College Tr Club
Boston College Amy Caldwell F MA Braintree Braintree HS South Coast Scorpions
Boston College Natalie Crutchfield F/M MA Acton Acton-Boxborough HS Tri-Valley Eagles
Boston College Jill MacNeil F MA Marshfield Marshfield HS South Coast Scorpions
Boston University Kara Ruggiero MA Braintree Braintree HS South Coast Scorpions
Brown Kate Scott F/M MA Medway Charles River United
Bucknell Amanda Citron M/D MA Marshfield Marshfield HS MPS Boston Renegades
Clemson Samantha Fortier F MA Wilbraham Minnechaug Reg HS South Coast Scorpions
Columbia Keriann Nobil F/M MA Lynnfield Lynnfield HS Boston Bolts
Delaware Christa Wilde M/D MA Holden Wachusett Reg HS Boston Renegades
Emmanuel College Kristina Cook F MA Granby Granby Regional HS Western United Bombers
Emmanuel College Amber DiNucci F MA Assonet Apponequet HS Nova SC
Emmanuel College Erin Hanlon D MA Rowley Triton Regional HS Aztec SC
Emmanuel College Stephanie Millis D MA Duxbury Duxbury HS MPS Boston Renegades
Emmanuel College Lauren Prall F MA Abington Notre Dame of Hingham Crusaders United
Emmanuel College Jessica Robinson MA Holliston Holliston HS New England Eagles
Maryland Kylie Ricker F MA Bolton Nashoba Regional HS Boston Renegades
Massachusetts Kelsey Anderson D MA Saugus Saugus HS South Coast Scorpions
Massachusetts Therese Smith M MA Holyoke Holyoke HS Western United
Massachusetts Alyssa Visconti MA North Reading North Reading HS South Coast Scorpions
New Hampshire Amy Avitabile M MA Pembroke Pembroke HS South Coast Scorpions
North Carolina Monica Welsh-Loveman G MA Wellesley Wellesley HS Boston Renegades
Northeastern Kristen Blake F/M MA Canton Canton HS Tri-Valley Eagles
Northeastern Lindsey Boisvert F/M MA Brewster Nauset Regional HS MPS Lady Crusaders
Northeastern Logan Kirkpatrick G MA Westhampton Northampton School South Coast Scorpions
Northeastern Krsiten McDermott D MA Canton Canton HS New England Eagles
Northeastern Emily Tunney D MA Medfield Medfield HS
Penn State Bianca D'Agostino M MA Longmeadow Loomis Chaffee
Quinnipiac Molly McNeil M MA Medfield Medfield HS New England Eagles
Rhode Island Jillian DiBenedetto F MA Wellesley Dana Hall HS Aztecs
Saint Anselm Jackie Cooney G MA Braintree Braintree HS South Coast Scorpions
Saint Anselm Kelly Cox D MA Lynnfield Lynnfield HS Spirit of Mass
Saint Anselm Jennifer Kane D MA Plymouth Plymouth North HS Crusaders United
Saint Anselm Steph Naugler M MA Beverley Hamilton-Wendham HS Mass Aztecs
Saint Anselm Jennifer Pearl M MA Stoughton Stoughton HS South Coast Scorpions
Saint Anselm Gabriella Pesce F MA Salem St Mary's HS Mass Aztecs
Saint Anselm Kayla Pitney F MA Needham Needham HS New England Eagles
Saint Anselm Hawley Rae D MA Marlboro Marlboro HS Inter-Bandits
Saint Anselm Rikki Sartor F MA Andover Andover HS Mass Aztecs
Stony Brook Danielle Tenaglia F MA North Reading North Reading HS Spirit of Mass
Syracuse Dana Bergstrom M MA Billerica Lexington Christian Acad Spirit of Mass
UAB Justine Hartigan MA Peabody Peabody Veterans HS Greater Boston Bolts
Yale Kayla Matheus M/D MA Concord Concord-Carlisle HS Delta FC

06-13-2007, 10:14 AM
I find this list interesting that no one club stands out. Most of the Maple clubs are well represented including some Div. 11 teams. I am not an MPS parent and have read the long MPS debate but I have been told that MPS have an excellent reputation with college coaches and they do a lot to help get there players recruited.

sir alex
06-13-2007, 10:23 AM
We are going through the college recruitment world right now. My daughter currently is a U17 Maple 1 player. I have learned a lot in the last year but have been told by college club coaches that there are very few mid to top Div. 1 players in MA. Saying that a lot of Div.1 lower program are not as strong as the Northeast 10 conference which those teams are in Sir ALex email above. You really need to start in Sophmore year. Start by contacting coaches in emails and then follow up with DVD etc. I have learned you need marketing, marketing & marketing. I found if you show a valid interest in a college that they are exciting also. The biggest problem I see is that parents and kids think they can play at UNC, BC, BU etc. Yes maybe if you are one of the top players in the state. So you need to be reasonable in your search. My daughter has received interest in Div. 11 schools and some high 3's and that is fine with her. I also have seen parents and players pick a school for soccer first. Don't do that. Find a school for academics first and then see if soccer would be a fit. Just my thoughts as we are going throught he process now.


Anonymous - here is a list of Massachusetts players and where they are going to college. Their club is listed and these girls come mainly from current U 18 but there are 10% - 15% who are current U 17 players. So if you wanted to track back to team to school you could do the work.

Good luck to you and your daughter


New College First Name Last Name Pos St/Ctry Hometown HS/Prev College Tr Club
Boston College Amy Caldwell F MA Braintree Braintree HS South Coast Scorpions
Boston College Natalie Crutchfield F/M MA Acton Acton-Boxborough HS Tri-Valley Eagles
Boston College Jill MacNeil F MA Marshfield Marshfield HS South Coast Scorpions
Boston University Kara Ruggiero MA Braintree Braintree HS South Coast Scorpions
Brown Kate Scott F/M MA Medway Charles River United
Bucknell Amanda Citron M/D MA Marshfield Marshfield HS MPS Boston Renegades
Clemson Samantha Fortier F MA Wilbraham Minnechaug Reg HS South Coast Scorpions
Columbia Keriann Nobil F/M MA Lynnfield Lynnfield HS Boston Bolts
Delaware Christa Wilde M/D MA Holden Wachusett Reg HS Boston Renegades
Emmanuel College Kristina Cook F MA Granby Granby Regional HS Western United Bombers
Emmanuel College Amber DiNucci F MA Assonet Apponequet HS Nova SC
Emmanuel College Erin Hanlon D MA Rowley Triton Regional HS Aztec SC
Emmanuel College Stephanie Millis D MA Duxbury Duxbury HS MPS Boston Renegades
Emmanuel College Lauren Prall F MA Abington Notre Dame of Hingham Crusaders United
Emmanuel College Jessica Robinson MA Holliston Holliston HS New England Eagles
Maryland Kylie Ricker F MA Bolton Nashoba Regional HS Boston Renegades
Massachusetts Kelsey Anderson D MA Saugus Saugus HS South Coast Scorpions
Massachusetts Therese Smith M MA Holyoke Holyoke HS Western United
Massachusetts Alyssa Visconti MA North Reading North Reading HS South Coast Scorpions
New Hampshire Amy Avitabile M MA Pembroke Pembroke HS South Coast Scorpions
North Carolina Monica Welsh-Loveman G MA Wellesley Wellesley HS Boston Renegades
Northeastern Kristen Blake F/M MA Canton Canton HS Tri-Valley Eagles
Northeastern Lindsey Boisvert F/M MA Brewster Nauset Regional HS MPS Lady Crusaders
Northeastern Logan Kirkpatrick G MA Westhampton Northampton School South Coast Scorpions
Northeastern Krsiten McDermott D MA Canton Canton HS New England Eagles
Northeastern Emily Tunney D MA Medfield Medfield HS
Penn State Bianca D'Agostino M MA Longmeadow Loomis Chaffee
Quinnipiac Molly McNeil M MA Medfield Medfield HS New England Eagles
Rhode Island Jillian DiBenedetto F MA Wellesley Dana Hall HS Aztecs
Saint Anselm Jackie Cooney G MA Braintree Braintree HS South Coast Scorpions
Saint Anselm Kelly Cox D MA Lynnfield Lynnfield HS Spirit of Mass
Saint Anselm Jennifer Kane D MA Plymouth Plymouth North HS Crusaders United
Saint Anselm Steph Naugler M MA Beverley Hamilton-Wendham HS Mass Aztecs
Saint Anselm Jennifer Pearl M MA Stoughton Stoughton HS South Coast Scorpions
Saint Anselm Gabriella Pesce F MA Salem St Mary's HS Mass Aztecs
Saint Anselm Kayla Pitney F MA Needham Needham HS New England Eagles
Saint Anselm Hawley Rae D MA Marlboro Marlboro HS Inter-Bandits
Saint Anselm Rikki Sartor F MA Andover Andover HS Mass Aztecs
Stony Brook Danielle Tenaglia F MA North Reading North Reading HS Spirit of Mass
Syracuse Dana Bergstrom M MA Billerica Lexington Christian Acad Spirit of Mass
UAB Justine Hartigan MA Peabody Peabody Veterans HS Greater Boston Bolts
Yale Kayla Matheus M/D MA Concord Concord-Carlisle HS Delta FCThat is one impressive list. Congrats to those players and good luck. New coach at St A's???

06-13-2007, 11:19 AM
Just to be sure that no one gets the wrong idea, that list of players and colleges is NOT by any means a complete list. It is merely a sample.

and don't get hung up on 'd-1' school vs 'd-2' school. there are d-1 schools with absolutely miserable soccer programs and d-2 and d-3 that are fantastic.

and my advice is to consider the VERY real fact that the player might drop out of the soccer program for whatever reason (loss of interest, academics, other interests, injury, etc.) after say 2 years. how would the 'school fit' be then??

Cujo
06-13-2007, 11:25 AM
The goals for our kids as far as soccer is concerned has always been to have fun and work at something they enjoy. We have no illusions about a full ride D1 scholarship or playing at UNC. That being said, our kids would like to play in college. So, the question is: is there sufficient info out there to make a rough projection whether and at what level youth players might be able to play in college? I assume there must be some historical data somewhere but don't know where to look. Maybe coaches can use their personal experience as a rough barometer and provide some guidance. For example, I'm guessing that if you are in the National pool at U17 it's likely you will play at a top level D1 school. However, how about if you play for a team that plays in a regional premier league? How about for a D1 team, D2 team, etc. That is, could a solid MAPLE D1 player find a roster spot at a D3 school? Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. For the sake of discussion, please assume that the grades, SATs, etc. are excellent so that we are not talking about an exemption because of athletic ability.

my daughter played Maple D and D2 for 7 years and was a competent but not outstanding player (3 to 5 goals per year as a forward). She was the best player on her HS team and usually in the top 25 to 30 in scoring in Eastern MA. She fit very comfortably in a D3 college program and was about midpoint skillwise in a team that won it's league championship. A solid D1 player would be a top player on most good D3 college teams and could play at D2 or possibly even some of the lower tier D1 teams. If she is over 5-8 with the current coaching philosophy at D1 colleges she would probably fare well as a walk on. D3 College teams have a fair share of players who played only HS and town soccer. MAPLE does not have alot of cache with many D3 coaches. The upper tier D1 players (top 2 or 3 players on a team) would do well on virtually any college team. My daughter only played one year due to an injury but it is likely that she may not have played as the new coach did not want any culinary arts students because he felt that they had too many confilicts to play. My daughter certainly had no intention of giving up her career choice for soccer. Most of the culinary arts students left the team. Also be prepared for tension between academics and athletics. My daughter was punished gradewise by several profs because she missed Friday classes for away games. Her GPA was 2.9 playing soccer and 3.6 not playing soccer. Keep that in mind.

MASC
06-13-2007, 02:23 PM
Do not choose a college based on soccer. It is an extracurricular activity.

Too many have made that mistake.

If the school is not a good fit academically, size, location, and socially, soccer will not get one through.

Look at many of the colleges that have accepted players, most do not give out athletic scholarships. These colleges have high academic standards. Soccer might have helped, but it was only one of many possible differentiators.

I wish them all success in college!

Show Me Soccer
06-13-2007, 02:38 PM
Here are some players from Nova U18's who have committed to schools for soccer.

Assumption: Nicole Ardine MF Walpole HS, Nova
St. Michaels: Elizabeth Freiberger MF Walple HS, Nova
Skidmore: Lindsay Schmitt D Nipmuc HS, Nova
Skidmore: Erin Donnellan D Walpole HS, Nova
Emmanuel: Amber DiNucci F Apponnequet HS, Nova
Brandeis: Tiffany Pacheco F D-R HS, Nova
Framingham State: Jill Johnson D Mansfield HS, Nova
Gloucester State: Kellen Matthews G Northboro, Nova
UVM: Christina Newman MF D-R, Nova
Stonehill: Michele Norton MF Cardinal Spellman, Nova
Bryant: Kristin Mulry F Hingham HS, Nova

One more player who now plays for FC Greater Bolts (Tracy Kerr) Jen Leaverton has committed to St. Johns University in NY and the Big East Conference.
Brandeis: Amanda Bellmar D D-Y HS, Nova

06-13-2007, 02:47 PM
Congratulations to all of these girls. So FSM, we are putting you on the case to track their careers. With any luck all will be injury-free and still playing and contributing 4 years from now!

06-13-2007, 02:53 PM
The college recruiting season is in full swing for the U17s. Tracy Kerr's Bolts team already has 5 commitments:

Clemson - Tara Cort
Cinncinatti - Julie Morrissey
Duke -Emily Nahas
Skidmore - Dana Brill
St. John's -Jen Leaverton

I have also heard the U17 Scorpions are attracting a lot of attention. This is not surprising considering these two teams have been the top teams in their age group for 4 years. Along with their success in MAPLE and Region 1, most of these players have participated in the ODP system and have attended the top tournaments. Congrats to all the girls who are committed and good luck to the girls who are still enduring the process!

06-13-2007, 03:23 PM
With having a child going through the process now, most likely a d-2 player, the question is how are the above U17 allowed to committ. It was my understanding and coaches have told us that Div. 1 cannot even contact(emails are Ok) until July 1st and Div. 11 until June 15th a couple days away. So how do they get around the NCAA rules.

sir alex
06-13-2007, 03:32 PM
With having a child going through the process now, most likely a d-2 player, the question is how are the above U17 allowed to committ. It was my understanding and coaches have told us that Div. 1 cannot even contact(emails are Ok) until July 1st and Div. 11 until June 15th a couple days away. So how do they get around the NCAA rules.The coach's cannot initiate contact, I believe the player can initiate and speak freely and then the player can commit. A lot has to do with who initiates the communication.

06-13-2007, 03:37 PM
Coaches can contact players by email or snail-mail after September 1st entering their junior year. The player may call the coach but the coach cannot call them until July 1st entering their senior year, but throughout junior year, coaches and players can text and email freely. Players are allowed to go on unofficial visits throughout junior year and during their senior year they are allowed to go on 5 official visits. In order to have a commitment, a player must commit to the soccer program, and the soccer program must commit to the player.

keeper
06-13-2007, 04:07 PM
Go to the NCAA site and download a copy of the -> NCAA Guide for the College-Bound Student-Athlete. Anyone considering playing in college should have a copy by U16. Clubs should order these every year.




.

06-13-2007, 04:20 PM
I agree that the player can contact the coach, but find it hard to believe they can committ to each other without detail contact on both sides which include unoffical vists( wink wink). The NCAA rules does have the July 1 st date for Division 1 and June 15th for Div. 11. I believe most coaches adhere to these rules so still confused on how full committments can be made before July 1st for the girls listed above.

06-13-2007, 04:29 PM
Unofficial visits can be made at any time. Offers can be made and accepted, though these verbal agreements aren't binding. (Coaches, however, rarely break these agreements: word would get out quickly, damaging both the coach's and the program's reputation.) Nothing is official until the NLI is signed in early February of a student-athlete's senior year.

06-13-2007, 04:38 PM
If not a full boat, has anyone had experience in negotiating the first offer from a coach?

06-13-2007, 05:00 PM
Don't forget the summer camp option. Many college coaches will run Elie level HS summer camps that are intended to both make money for the coach and provide a week long recruiting opportunity. On the positive side for the player it can give them a great chance to see a school, area and program in a more up close and personal situation. You have to pay, it isn't an official visit and coaches cannot directly approach players about attending, BUT...

06-13-2007, 05:04 PM
I find this list interesting that no one club stands out. Most of the Maple clubs are well represented including some Div. 11 teams. I am not an MPS parent and have read the long MPS debate but I have been told that MPS have an excellent reputation with college coaches and they do a lot to help get there players recruited.

Yes, MPS has developed a great reputation with college coaches. In addition, MPS is very good at reaching out to coaches on behalf of the players. The one thing, though, is that MPS will not sugar coat their recommendation to any college coach. If the MPS management do not think you are i.e. Boston College D1 level, they will let the player know that and they will not over-promote you to that college coach.

A few years ago, MPS had a parent help coordinate the college recruiting process for their players. He created profile formats and team programs for the older players that players and the club could provide college coaches. In addition this parent coordinated a panel of college coaches seminar for the older players to come listen about the recruiting process, the timeline for what and when players should do and for what / when coaches were allowed to do certain things. And these things varied depending if you were D1, D2, or D3. MPS also ran a college showcase of games with teams competing internally against each other. This I understand has continued to grow in participation by college coaches watching. Other than the showcase games, I don't know if MPS still has someone coordinating the profiles, etc..

06-13-2007, 05:29 PM
Finally a worthwhile thread with great information :P

06-13-2007, 05:42 PM
The Aztecs have a great annual college mentoring seminar and written materials for their players wanting college soccer. As a parent it answered all the questions I had and many I hadn't thought of.

They had copies of letters to send to coaches, advice how to accurately present yourself in the best light, gave insight into what college coaches are looking for and how they do their process and a time line of what you should so when; and also the restrictions colleges need to abide by etc .

Other things I liked:

They distributed books that listed most colleges who play soccer, coaches names, contact info, soccer playing style, senior graduations by positions and a list of what the coaches saw of needs that they want filled.

They also worked with the u16 players to get a list of colleges they might be interested in. By the time they were U16 had a complete set of bios of each u16 and u 17 player to be distributed at tournaments soccer, academics etc.. They also had advised the colleges requested by the kids where to see the particular player

They take a big role in helping each of their kids get where they want to be. But the best thing that they did - was be realistic about where the player could successfully play. Our family found that they had tremendous credibility with college coaches because they were unbelievable at communicating through out the process but never oversold their players edither to the coaches or to the families wanting to hear that their kid was better than their true ability.

It was a great program and guided the whole family through the process starting at u15 and u16 to avoid the last minute panic.

06-13-2007, 05:55 PM
Very few full boats. In terms of negotiating with a coach, honesty is always the best policy. Let him know where the school ranks on your daughter's list and what you need financially to make it happen. It's alright to state what other offers your daughter has received but don't embellish and don't play one school off against another too much. It's a small world: coaches talk among themselves.

BTW, D1 schools have an NCAA-mandated maximum of 14 scholarships to distribute across the entire team, if the program is fully funded (and many are not -- for example, the Ivies offer no athletic aid). If the program has a roster of, say, 25, that's an average scholarship of 56%. The median, however, is less because a couple of highly coveted athletes get full or close to full rides, leaving less for everyone else. It's a zero sum game. I'd estimate the median soccer scholarship is somewhere around 35% to 40%. Most D1 programs have several student-athletes who are preferred walk-ons (aka recruited walk-ons). These players receive all the benefits of being on the team (e.g., preferred scheduling, unlimited tutoring, etc.) but receive no athletic scholarship money. It's fairly common.

I believe D2 school have fewer scholarships, 12 I think (it may only be 9.9 but I believe it was recently increased to a dozen; someone will correct me if I'm wrong). And, of course, D3 school have no athletic scholarships, though if a coach really want a player he can often find academic money and other grants to make it happen.

All of the above is for girls. Men's D1 and D2 programs have fewer scholarships.

06-13-2007, 06:03 PM
You are correct , don't under estimate Div. 111 $$$. I have heard of coaches finding a lot of money in grants etc. that you would not find without soccer.

06-13-2007, 06:06 PM
Very few full boats. In terms of negotiating with a coach, honesty is always the best policy. Let him know where the school ranks on your daughter's list and what you need financially to make it happen. It's alright to state what other offers your daughter has received but don't embellish and don't play one school off against another too much. It's a small world: coaches talk among themselves.

BTW, D1 schools have an NCAA-mandated maximum of 14 scholarships to distribute across the entire team, if the program is fully funded (and many are not -- for example, the Ivies offer no athletic aid). If the program has a roster of, say, 25, that's an average scholarship of 56%. The median, however, is less because a couple of highly coveted athletes get full or close to full rides, leaving less for everyone else. It's a zero sum game. I'd estimate the median soccer scholarship is somewhere around 35% to 40%. Most D1 programs have several student-athletes who are preferred walk-ons (aka recruited walk-ons). These players receive all the benefits of being on the team (e.g., preferred scheduling, unlimited tutoring, etc.) but receive no athletic scholarship money. It's fairly common.

I believe D2 school have fewer scholarships, 12 I think (it may only be 9.9 but I believe it was recently increased to a dozen; someone will correct me if I'm wrong). And, of course, D3 school have no athletic scholarships, though if a coach really want a player he can often find academic money and other grants to make it happen.

All of the above is for girls. Men's D1 and D2 programs have fewer scholarships.

great point. and for that % payment, the 'student athelete' will live and breather soccer basically for four years. fall season, winter indoors. spring training, summer workout schedules. official workouts, unofficial workouts, etc. etc. etc.

it can be wearing on a kid.

06-13-2007, 07:13 PM
Yes, they have to really want to play college soccer. At Div. 1 they do own you but 2 and 3 can be not as intense. So the thread is for the ones that want to play at the next level and the best way to go about it. You can start another thread on the pro's & con's of playing college ball.

06-13-2007, 08:11 PM
Yes, they have to really want to play college soccer. At Div. 1 they do own you but 2 and 3 can be not as intense. So the thread is for the ones that want to play at the next level and the best way to go about it. You can start another thread on the pro's & con's of playing college ball.

Thanks for the advice. But I think I'll just stay on this thread. Because for kids 'wanting to play college ball' one of the biggest issues is what IS INVOLVED in playing 'college ball'. And some of the advice on this thread is dead on. The youth soccer player who decides that 'i played in hs and want to play in college' is BEST advised to find out what 'playing in college' INVOLVES before making the decision.

06-13-2007, 08:27 PM
I agree that the player can contact the coach, but find it hard to believe they can committ to each other without detail contact on both sides which include unoffical vists( wink wink). The NCAA rules does have the July 1 st date for Division 1 and June 15th for Div. 11. I believe most coaches adhere to these rules so still confused on how full commitments can be made before July 1st for the girls listed above.

Commitments can be made.....both boys and girls through out the country are committed to various colleges, d1 through d3. Like someone said above, coaches nor players almost never break a commitment. Normally what is involved in committing is that admissions gives a read on the students grades and gives the go-ahead depending whether or not he/she clears the academic standards for the school. After a student-athlete is cleared, it is up to the coach to offer a "commitment," and begin talking about scholarships.

keeper
06-13-2007, 08:40 PM
Random thoughts:

A prospective coach expects you to have done your homework, you should know the school and both the academic and the sports program. If you don’t have the grades or are a Forward when last year’s class just added 5 new Forwards, it’s going to be tough.

There is a big difference between the top 25% and bottom 25% D1 programs. There are also D2 and D3 programs the have very intense programs

Consider your academic interest very carefully because some D1 programs just won’t work with some majors.

Read the fine print in the offer. If you have an injury, your money can disappear at the end of the season and leave you high and dry for the rest of the academic year. The amount of money can be adjusted each year based on performance. That hot new freshman coming in next year may impact your money.

Coaches try to use both sports money and academic money to create the most offers. A player with higher grades is much easier to fund and the average grades on the girls side of college soccer is well above the average for that school.

Most people lie about the offer they receive. The true full boat is very rare and some offers can be as low as $500.

College coaches all talk to each other, so don’t try and BS anyone. By the time visits take place, they will know who else you’re talking with and any pending offers. They will not bid against each other.

Don’t go to a school just for the soccer, for many many reasons; soccer can end very quickly...

Consider any interest you may have in studying abroad, soccer may limit or negate those options.

High level D1 soccer requires a lot of time, and will control and limit your options/opportunities on campus. After spending so much of their “free timeâ€￾ in youth soccer, some players grow to resent losing that time again in college.




.

Cujo
06-14-2007, 08:57 AM
Unless you are one of the top 10 to 20 players in your state, playing soccer with the intent of securing scholarship money to help you go to school is a fool's errand. You have a better chance of getting aid if you learn to play the oboe. Unless you have the ability to make a living playing soccer after college you should pick a school that you like and that meets your education goals. My nephew was a top goaltender and was offered a good scholarship to play at UNH. The coach was very honest with him and tol him that he would be the #3 keeper initially and that he recruited one goaltender every year so there was no guarantee he would even make the team and keep his scholarship in year 2. He was also clear that soccer came first and that he did not care if a teacher was unwilling to accomodate his athletic schedule and if his grades suffered because of it. My nephew chose VWU instead (d3) and started all four years and ultimately played for the Virginia Beach Mariners as their #3 keeper for a few years. I think he dressed for one league game. Meanwhile he went to a school where he knew the coach and had a clear understanding that academics came first and that soccer came second. The coach had been there for 17 years. This is an important factor. You may get a commitment from a d3 coach that academics comes first but many d3 coaches last only a few years and then move on. In short the lesson is do your homework and keep your eyes open and don't believe everything the coach tells you. Many are only slightly further up the evolutionary ladder from used car salesmen.

Falcon77
06-14-2007, 08:59 AM
Other college commits from the Bolts U18 squad:

Colby, Jess Bushee
Providence, Jill Schott
Salem State, Tina Drakoulas
Skidmore, Mariel Jefferson

ggrevisited
06-14-2007, 10:40 AM
Keeper's post was dead-on; great stuff...this has been a good thread.

Here's the advice we give to every kid in terms of how they choose the schools they apply to (whether D1 or D3):
Consider the following 5 criteria - research the school to make sure you know the answers to these questions and how the answers fit into your "ideal" school...

1) Academics - do they have your major, or if you are undecided do they have a few options you are considering? do you have the SAT/GPA to get into your major, or will you need backing to get accepted? once accepted, will you struggle to stay eligible if the demands of your program are too tough?

Note - a big turn-off to recruits as a coach is when I ask "what major are you interested in?" and they state one that we don't have...shows they didn't do their homework on us as a college and are only thinking about soccer

2) Geography - is it far from home? too close to home? do you get to have a car on campus if you need to go home and visit? do you get homesick?

Note: many freshmen players struggle with homesickness during pre-season if they underestimate the distance and chance in not being close to family

3) School size - do you do well in large classes where your teacher knows you as a number vs. a name? do you need small classes because you struggle with some academic areas? do you feel comfortable in a large campus where you need to take a shuttle to get from class to class? do you want a smaller campus where you know where everything is and can get from point A to point B easily...or will you hate being in a school that is small and feels like "high school"?

Note: this question is becoming increasingly important to parents as school safety issues have been brought to a head recently

4) Finances - can you (you meaning your parents) afford the school if no money is available? are there grants/financial aid packages that you are eligible for? will you end up paying off your loan for the next 20 years if you choose this school, and if so, can you really afford it?

5) Social - what is the school's social climate like? is it a party school, a quiet school with strict rules in residence halls, is it a "suitcase" school, are there men's only and women's only dorms, alcohol-free areas, etc. Is it close to the city, or is it out in the country where there is not much to do? Is athletics the focus of the social climate, or is there greek life, etc? And what does you playing soccer mean to how you will participate in social activities?

Step one: identify schools that are a fit for you in the above 5 criteria...once you have, find out about their soccer program and whether that is a good fit as well (can you play there, are they competitive at whatever level they play, etc).

Very important that players have a true, personal definition of success for their college career - some want to play D1 only to say they play D1...some really want to an integral part of a program, at any level...some want to be on a championship team or at least compete for a championship each season...some want to be a big fish in a little pond...

There are a ton of schools out there and many that will fit; it takes research and the willingness to seek out what will really will matter to you as an individual.

And here's one big no-no - do not send out an email introducing yourself that is cc:d to multiple coaches. No form letters either; it shows you are not really serious about the schools you are contacting and instead are "fishing" for interest.

Sorry for the lengthy post...

Red99
06-14-2007, 10:54 AM
Keeper's post was dead-on; great stuff...this has been a good thread.

[edited out]

Sorry for the lengthy post...

Don't apologize! You're right, excellent post and very helpful info.
Thanks.

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 11:05 AM
Sir Alex,

Didn't you have a very detailed post from the old touchline on the college experience when your team was u/17 - u/18? I remember it as being informative and good. If you still have the info would you mind reposting?

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 11:10 AM
Found them

College Timeline. Again, by far, this is not perfect, but it may be helpful.

College Recruiting

Summer between Junior and Senior year.

1. Prior to the end of August, you should have an idea as to the type of schools you are interested in (location, size, area of study, etc.). You should have a list of no more than 10 schools that you are seriously considering.
2. Prior to the end of August, you should print out the fall season college soccer schedules (those colleges that you are interested in). During the fall, you should go and watch some games. The day immediately after watching the game, email the coach and tell them what you thought of the game (positives) and make them aware that you were there to watch.
3. During the fall season, email the soccer coach and tell them of your interest and ask if they mind if you attend one of their practices (to watch). Remember, you are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you.
4. Prior to November, you should visit colleges. Contact the soccer coach at least 2 weeks prior to your visit to set up a meeting with him/her.
5. It is important that you provide the soccer coach with all the correct information when asking for them to attend your game: game times and locations, your JERSEY # for the team that you are playing for, etc.
6. Try to distinguish yourself from the regular player – note if you are on the State Team, State Champion team, your club team will be attending Score at the Shore, Hazlet, and OrangeClassic. By listing this, it should draw the coach’s attention to you.

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 11:11 AM
College Coach Rules

COLLEGE COACH RULES
Contacts:
As a high school student-athlete, you may call, write, fax or email them at any time.
As College coaches, they may call you only after July 1 following your Junior year of high school and are limited to one (1) phone call per week.
As college coaches, they may write, fax or email you only after September 1 of your Junior year of high school. There is no limit on the number of correspondences per week.
Campus Visits:
Unofficial Visit - When you, as a prospect, visit a college campus at your own expense. There is no limit on how many times you may visit a college "unofficially".
Official Visit - When you, as a prospect, visit a college campus at the partial or total expense of the college's representative of athletics (i.e. a coach). You may only take five (5) official visits in total and never more than one (1) to the same school.

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 11:12 AM
College Email / Letter,

Subject heading: Prospective Soccer Player

Dear Coach:

I am very interested in your college and your soccer program. I would welcome the opportunity for you to see me play and evaluate me as a prospective player for your team. I will be participating this spring in the xxx League, xxx League, and the xxx Invitational tournament. Here is a link to our upcoming games – ___________. This site is updated daily with game times and field locations. For your ease, I’ve also provided you with directions to our home field (at bottom of email).

Below is a brief summary of my personal information as well as information regarding my club team.

Name: xxxxx
Number: ##
Position: xxxx
Graduation Year: 200x
GPA: x.x
SAT/PSAT : xxxx
Email: xxxxx
Phone: (xxx) xxx-xxxx
Town/State: xxxxx, MA
Club Team: xxxxxxx
Club Team Website: xxxxxxx
Age Group: Girls U17 for 2003/2004 season

I look forward to meeting you and welcome the opportunity to have you see me play.

Thank you again for your time and consideration.

Xxxxx

Directions

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 11:13 AM
College Email / Letter,

Dear Coach:

I am considering applying for admission to your college in the fall of 2004. I aspire to play soccer in college. I have been playing competitive soccer in the xxx League for xxx for xxx years. The past two years, my teammates have elected me captain. We have played in national tournaments including Bethesda Invitational MD, OrangeClassic FL, and Columbia Invitational MD. I have also played Varsity soccer for xxx High School since my freshman year. In this time, we have not lost a league game and have qualified for the state tournament every year. My primary position on both teams is center mid, but I have played every other position when called upon (from outside back to center forward).

I am also a certified soccer referee. In addition to soccer, I am committed to all other activities I pursue. For instance, I have played basketball all through high school. I have been a starter for the Varsity team since my sophomore year. I have played AAU basketball for two years and plan to continue to do so. In addition to soccer and basketball, I enjoy playing golf. I am a member of the xxx
Country Club and play competitively in multiple tournaments.

I constantly push myself to excel and improve. I take it upon myself outside of team practices to fine tune my individual skills. I am disciplined and committed. I would like to be considered as a candidate in your program.

I look forward to meeting you and welcome the opportunity to have you see me play. I will be contacting you with my playing schedule as well as when I plan on visiting your campus. Attached is a player information page for your convenience. Please feel free to contact me, my coaches, or club officials with inquires. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Best regards,


xxx
Phone number:
Email:
Address:

Enclosed: letter, information page, and schedule.

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 11:15 AM
Blue Devil comment - this info was put together in 2004 and is out of date

WOMEN's - College Emails and phone #'s. If this doesn't come out formatted correctly, please PM me and I'll send the MS Excel version.


Albright College Khanh Nguyen Khanh.Nguyen@arrowintl.com
Albright College Tom Greenawalt tommygreenawalt@yahoo.com
Alfred University Danielle Foote dsf1@alfred.edu
Allegheny College Megan Horner pbonus@allegheny.edu
American University Mike Brady mbrady@american.edu 202-885-3047
Amherst College Michelle Morgan mcmorgan@amherst.edu (413) 542-2362
Andrew College Barry Kaplan barrykaplan@andrewcollege.edu
Anna Maria College
Appalachian State University Ben Popoola popoolabo@appstate.edu
Arcadia University Kris Anderson hysclightning@msn.com
Arcadia University Kristofor Anderson andersok@arcadia.edu
Arcadia University Rich Brownell brownelr@arcadia.edu
Arizona State University Mike Calise mike.calise@asu.edu 480-965-2439
Arkansas State University Jason Wharton jwharton@astate.edu 870-910-8252
Assumption College Neil Stafford wsoccer@assumption.edu
Auburn University Becky Fletcher fletcrm@auburn.edu
Auburn University Matthew Mott mottmat@auburn.edu 334 844-9287
Averett University Kelly Gregory www.averett.edu (http://www.averett.edu)
Babson Judy Blinstrub blinstrub@babson.edu (781) 239-4418
Baylor University Mario Rincon Mario_Rincon@baylor.edu 254-710-3633
Bentley Lori Duran lduran@bentley.edu 781-891-2451
Birmingham Southern College Keidane Mcalpine kmcalpin@bsc.edu
Bloomsburg University Sandy Dickson sdickson@bloomu.edu
Boise State University Steve Lucas slucas@boisestate.edu 208-426-5425
Boston College ****** Foley womens.soccer@bc.edu
Boston College Chris Hamblin hamblinc@bc.edu 617-552-0982
Boston University Jen Goff goff@bu.edu
Boston University Nancy Feldman buwosoc@bu.edu 617/353-8456/8497
Bowling Green State University Ashlee Orr ashleeo@bgnet.bgsu.edu
Bowling Green State University Andy Richards arich@bgnet.bgsu.edu 419-372-9602
Brewton-Parker College Bill Glass bglass@bpc.edu
Brigham Young University Chris Watkins chris_watkins@byu.edu 801 422-8733
Brown Phil Pincince Phil_Pincince@Brown.edu 401-863-1952
Bryant Chris Flint cflint@bryant.edu 401.232.6511
Bryn Mawr College Amy Nakamoto anakamot@brynmawr.edu
Bucknell Chrissy Findlay cfindlay@bucknell.edu
Bucknell University Sue Willard swillard@bucknell.edu
Cabrini College Ken Prothero kprothero@cabrini.edu
CAL Berkeley Kevin Boyd boydk@uclink4.berkeley.edu 510-643-8100
CAL Berkeley JT Thomas
Cal Poly P.J. Woolridge pwoolrid@calpoly.edu 805-756-2654
California University of PA Nicole Bartkus bartkus@cup.edu
Camden County College John Gallagher soccer_systems@fcc.net
Carnegie Mellon University Heather Kendra hkendra@andrew.cmu.edu
Catholic University of America JP Sousa Jonpaulsousa@yahoo.com
Cecil Community College Greg Witkop cecilccsoccer@yahoo.com
Centenary College Kevin Davis athletics@centenarycollege.edu
Central Comm. College Dave Perry ddrrtt@earthlink.net 404-634-3687
Central Connecticut State University Tanja Pihlblad pihlbladT2mail.ccsu.edu
Chatham College Ricardo Iribarren RICKYIRI@AOL.COM
Chesapeake College Phil McGovern pmcgovern@ymcade.org
Chestnut Hill College Ferris Shawn ferris@chc.edu 215-242-7715
Christopher Newport University Kwame T. Lloyd klloyd@cnu.edu
Clark Joe Brady jbrady@clarku.edu (508)793-7164
Clemson Todd Bramble tbrambl@clemson.edu 864-656-1944
Coast Guard Academy Carla DeSantis cdesantis@exmail.uscga.edu
Colgate University KATHY BRAWN kbrawn@mail.colgate.edu (315) 228-7762
College of Charleston Tim Santoro santorot@cofc.edu
College of Holy Cross Mary Curtis mcurtis@holycross.edu (508) 793-3624
College of Notre Dame of Maryland Jay Golomb jkgsoccer@comcast.net
Columbia University Kevin McCarthy kjm28@columbia.edu 212-854-4559
Concordia University Irvine Hamid Sedehi HSedehi@aol.com 949.633.7228
Connecticut College Ken Kline kakli@conncoll.edu (860) 439-2567
Cornell University Andeberhan, Berhane ba22@cornell.edu 607-255-4762
Covenant College Mark Duble mduble@covenant.edu
Creighton University Erika Flanders eflanders@creighton.edu
Creighton University Bruce Erickson erickson@creighton.edu 402-660-5836
Dartmouth College Ben Landis Ben.Landis@dartmouth.edu 603-646-3581
Delaware Scott Grzenda sag@udel.edu
Delaware Valley College Kevin Doherty doherty@devalcol.edu
DeSales University Dave Yob ACWSOCYOB@msn.com
Dickinson College Shellec Copley copley@dickinson.edu
Doane College Eliot Siegman esiegman@aol.com 402-826-8622
Drake University Corbin Stone corbin.stone@drake.edu
Drew University Christa Racine cracine@drew.edu
Drew University Lauren Pachucki lpachucki@hotmail.com
Duke Robbie Church robbie.church@duke.edu 919.668.5749
Duke University Billy Lesesne billy.lesesne@duke.edu 919-681-3456
East Stroudsburg University Derek Arneaud Derek.Arneaud@po-box.esu.edu
Eastern Michigan University Scott Hall scott.hall@emich.edu
Eastern University Dan Mouw emouw@eastern.edu
Emmanuel Wayne C. Currie currie@emmanuel.edu
Emmerson Kristin Parnell kristin_parnell@emerson.edu (617) 824-8905
Fairfield University Maria Piechocki mpiechocki@mail.fairfield.edu
Fairleigh Dickinson University Peter Gaglioti gaglioti@fdu.edu
Fairleigh Dickinson University Phil Casella casella@fdu.edu
Farleigh Dickinson University(Florham) Renee Montana montana@fdu.edu
Ferrum College Celia Mosier cmosier@ferrum.edu
Fitchburg State Tom McGuinness TMACTOM@aol.com 978-665-4695
Flagler College Noel Wayne King
Florida International University Daniel Brizard brizard@fiu.edu
Florida International University Everton Edwards edwardse@fiu.edu
Florida State University Robert Thompson rthomps2@mailer.fsu.edu
Florida Tech Tammy Mazza tmazza@fit.edu
Fordham University Ness Selmani SELMANI@FORDHAM.EDU
Framingham State Christina Bebas bebas@rocketmail.com
Franklin Pierce Jeff Bailey baileyj@fpc.edu (603) 899-4087x4072
Frostburg State University Brian Parker bparker@frostburg.edu
Furman University Brian Lee brian.lee@furman.edu 864-294-3071
Gardner-Webb University Rob Berkowitz rberkowitz@gardner-webb.edu
George Mason University Laura Allen lallen1@gmu.edu
George Washington University Tanya Vogel chippy2@gwu.edu 202-994-0152
George Washington University Tanya Vogel wsoccer@gwu.edu 202-994-0152
Georgetown university Dave Nolan DMN@GEORGETOWN.EDU 202-687-3173
Georgia College & State University Michelle Parr michelle_parr@bobcat.gcsu.edu
Georgia College & State University Robert Parr robert.parr@gcsu.edu
Georgia Southern University Andrew Hansen ahansen@gasou.edu
Goldey Beacom Chris Morgan morganc@gbc.edu
Goucher College Michele Hoffman mhoffman@goucher.edu
Grambling State University Mark Rodrigues magic_coach@hotmail.com
Grambling State University Matthew Okoh okoh@gram.edu
Grand Canyon University Petar Draksin pdraksin@grand-canyon.edu 602-589-2835
Grand Canyon University Petar Draksin pdraksin@gcu.edu 602-589-2835
Green Mountain College Rick Stainton staintonr@greenmtn.edu
Greensboro College Doug Shank dshank@gborocollege.edu
Grove City College Melissa Lamie mdlamie@gcc.edu
Gwynedd Mercy College Jason Neumann jneumann@fleetcc.com
Harvard Tim Wheaton twheaton@fas.harvard.edu (617) 495-3776
Harvard University Tim Wheaton twheaton@fas.harvard.edu 617-495-3776
Haverford Wendy Smith w1smith@haverford.edu
Idaho State University Chrissy Nelson nelschri@isu.edu 208-282-4263
Indiana State University Vernon Croft v-croft@indstate.edu 812-237-7738
Iowa State University Dustin Kralik dkralik@iastate.edu
Iowa State University Rebecca Hornbacher rhornbac@iastate.edu 5-294-5328
Jacksonville State University Lisa Howe lhowe@jsucc.jsu.edu
Jacksonville State University Wendy Holleman holleman@jsucc.jsu.edu
James Madison University David Lombardo w-soccer@jmu.edu (540) 568-3452
James Madison University Greg Paynter payntegp@jmv.edu
Johns Hopkins University Leo Weil coachweil@aol.com 410-516-7967
Johnson And Wales University Mike Baldwin Mike.Baldwin@jwu.edu
Juniata College Scott McKenzie mckenzs@juniata.edu
Kean University Brian Dothery Jr. bdoherty@kean.edu
Kent State University Anita Rodriguez arodrigu@kent.edu
Kentucky Wesleyan College Larry Kirk lrkjck@bellsouth.net
Kenyon College Kelly Walters waltersk@kenyon.edu
La Salle University Jeannine Calhoun calhoun@lasalle.edu (215) 951-1523
La Salle University Paul Royal royal@lasalle.edu 215.951.1523
Lafayette College Wayne Miller millerw@lafayette.edu 610-330-5458
Le Moyne College Matt Townsend townseMD@lemoyne.edu
Lebanon Valley College Lauren Frankford frankfor@lvc.edu
Lehigh University Kristin Buckley keb7@lehigh.edu
Lehigh University Manny Oudin wsoccer@lehigh.edu 610-758-4346
Lesley College Raed Masoud soccer@mail.lesley.edu
Limestone College Benji Walton bwalton@limestone.edu
Lock Haven University Neil Condon ncondon@lhup.edu
Long Island University Tracy Bartholomew tracy.bartholomew@liu.edu
Long Island University-Brooklyn Amphone Ketnouvong aketnouv@liu.edu
Long Island University-Brooklyn Elise Donovan edonova@yahoo.com
Longwood University Todd Dyer tdyer@longwood.edu
Loyola Marymount University Gregg Murphy gmurphy@lmu.edu 310-338-2795
Loyola Marymount University Michelle Myers mmyers@lmu.edu 310-338-2796
Lycoming College Scott Kennell kennell@lycoming.edu
Lynchburg College Todd Olsen olsen.t@lynchburg.edu
Manhattanville College Jenna Szyluk szylukj@mville.edu
Marquette University Frank Pelaez Frank.Pelaez@marquette.edu 414-288-3669
Marquette University Markus Roeders Markus.Roeders@mu.edu 414-288-7414
Marshall University Chris Kane kane@marshall.edu
Marshall University Cory Hill hill51@marshall.edu
Marshall University Shannon St. George stgeorge1@marshall.edu
Marymount University Bob Meden robert.meden@marymount.edu
Mc Daniel Collete Scot Swanson Scswanson1@aol.com
Mercyhurst College Keith Cammidge kcammidge@mercyhurst.edu
Messiah Scott Frey sfrey@messiah.edu
Miami University Hugh Seyfarth seyfarhm@muohio.edu
Middlebury Diane Boettcher dboettch@jaguar.middlebury.edu (802) 443-5410
Milligan College David Dixon ddixon@milligan.edu
Mississippi State University Neil McGuire nmcguire@athletics.msstate.edu 662 325 0718
Mississippi Valley State University Dean Joseph djoseph09@aol.com
Monmouth University Krissy Turner kturner@monmouth.edu 732-571-4410
Monmouth University Ron Autenrieth rautenri@monmouth.edu
Montclair State University Eileen Blair eileen.blair@us.pwc.com
Moravian College Eric Lambinus soccer@moravin.edu
Mount Olive College Chris Shaw cshaw@moc.edu
Mount St. Vincent Cathy Ingram cingram216@aol.com
Navy Rob Blanck blanck@usna.edu
Newberry College Juan Favero juan.favero@newberry.edu
Nichols College Chris Traina cstraina@nichols.edu (508) 213-2355
North Carolina State University Michelle Demko michelle_demko@ncsu.edu 919-819-3013
Northeastern University Ed Matz e.matz@neu.edu (617) 373-4465
Northern Illinois University Allison Wade awade@niu.edu
Northwestern University Jenny Haigh j-haigh@northwestern.edu 847-467-3151
Ohio State University Jonathan Lipsitz lipsitz.1@osu.edu 614-292-8482
Ohio Wesleyan University Bob Barnes rcbarnes@owu.edu
Ole Miss Derek Greene dgreene@olemiss.edu
Oregon State University Steve Fennah Steve.Fennah@orst.edu 541-737-3081
Oregon State University Heidi Slaymaker Heidi.Slaymaker@orst.edu 541-737-4731
Pacific University Jim Brazeau jimbrazeau@pacificu.edu 503-352-2272
Penn Darren Ambrose dvambros@pobox.upenn.edu 215-898-2923
Penn State University Paula Wilkins plw6@psu.edu 814-863-5372
Plymouth State University Keith Scarlett kscarlett@mail.plymouth.edu
Portland State University Pete Showler showlerp@pdx.edu 503-725-5611
portland state university Leslie Weeks lweeks@pdx.edu 503 725 5537
Princeton University Julie Shackford jcs@princeton.edu (609)258-4921
Princeton University Chris Pfau cpfau@princeton.edu (609)258-4921
Providence College Sara Overgaag overgaag@providence.edu
Providence College Tracy Kerr tkerr@providence.edu 401-865-2032
Randolph-Macon College Erin Reidy eriedy@rmc.edu
Rhode Island Lisa Cole lcole@mail.uri.edu 401-874-5233
Rice Univeristy Chris Huston chuston@rice.edu 713-348-6955
Rice University David Winner dwinner@rice.edu
Rice University Nicky Thrasher thrasher@rice.edu 713-348-6956
Rider University Kevin Long klong@reider.edu
Roanoke College Beverly A. Biancur biancur@roanoke.edu
Roger Williams Universtiy Emily Kiablick ekiablick@rwu.edu
Rose-Hulman Brad Hauter brad.hauter@rose-hulman.edu
Rutgers University Glenn Crooks GCROOKS@RCI.RUTGERS.EDU 732-445-4073 / 732-445-7880
Rutger's University-Newark Erik Burstein burstein@andromeda.rutgers.edu
Sacramento State John DeMartini jdemart@csus.edu 916-278-5281
Saint Francis University Michael Coll tmcad1@mail.francis.edu
Saint Peter's College Elizabeth A. Roper eroper@spc.edu
Salem State Alvaro Ibanez
Salisbury University Jim Nestor jpnestor@salisbury.edu
Salve Regina University Lisa Yenush yenushl@salve.edu 401-341-2247
Samford University Todd Yelton atyelton@samford.edu 205-726-4039
San Diego State University Angela Morrison amorriso@mail.sdsu.edu 619-594-1916
Santa Clara University Erin Hussey echussey@scu.edu 408.554.2713
Santa Clara University Jerry Smith echussey@scu.edu 408.554.2713
Savannah College Of Art & Design Andy Williamson anwillia@scad.edu
Savannah College of Art and Design Alexis Kmitis akmitis@scad.edu
Seton Hall Betty Ann Kempf kempfeli@shu.edu
Seton Hall Michele Canning none given
Seton Hall University Betty Ann Kempf kempfeli@shu.edu (973) 761-9777
Shenandoah University Miranda Armstrong marmstro@su.edu
Siena College Rob Parker rparker@siena.edu
Siena College Steve Karbowski skarbowski@siena.edu
Simmons pickle Dawson dawson_dick@hotmail.com
Slippery Rock University Sergio Gonzalez sergio.gonzalez@sru.edu
Southern University Rohan O. Naraine ROHAN_NARAINE@CXS.SUBR.EDU
Southern Utah University Brian Stock stock@suu.edu 435.865.8513
St. Andrews Presbyterian College Elizabeth Bowden bowdenel@sapc.edu
St. Andrews Presbyterian College Stevan Hernandez hernandz@sapc.edu
St. Joseph's University Jess Reynolds jreynold@mailhost.sju.edu
St. Lawrence University Deb Biche dbiche@stlawu.edu
St. Mary's College of Maryland Mark Medmelstein mamermelstein@smcm.edu
St. Michael's Marcel Choquette mchoquette@smcvt.edu 802-654-2903
St. Peter's College Elizabeth Roper eroper@spc.edu
Stanford Paul Ratcliffe ratcliffe@stanford.edu 650-725-9884
Stanford University Andy Nelson apnelson@stanford.edu 650-725-0757
Stetson University Julie Orlowski jorlowsk@stetson.edu
Stetson University Rod Kenney ckenney@stetson.edu
Stonehill Kathy Brophy
Stony Brook University Megan Mills mmills@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Suny Cortland Laura Ray rayla@cortland.edu
Susquehanna University Jim Findlay findlay@susqu.edu
Syracuse University April Kater askater@syr.edu (315) 443-1870x 5859
Syracuse University Tracey Britton tbritton@syr.edu
Temple University David Jones smball@verizon.net
Texas A&M Phil Stephenson pstephenson@athletics.tamu.edu 979-574-6443
Texas Tech University Felix Oskam Felix.Oskam@ttu.edu 806-742-3355
The University Of Louisiana @ Monroe Freddy Delgado delgado@ulm.edu
The University Of Louisiana @ Monroe Stacy Lamb lamb@ulm.edu
Towson University Leslie Wray lwray@towson.edu
Trinity College - CT Michael Smith michael.smith.3@trincoll.edu (860) 297-5283
Trintiy Christian College Todd Rivers TopAgent@tampabay.rr.com
Troy State University Andy Stoots soccer@troyst.edu
Troy State University John Garvilla garvilla@troyst.edu
Tulane University Riki-Ann Serrins rikianns@yahoo.com 504-314-7248
Tusculum College Brian Diaz bdiaz@tusculum.edu
U Mass Lowell Elie Monteiro Elie_Monteiro@uml.edu
U. of Dayton Manoj Khettry Manoj.Khettry@notes.udayton.edu 937.229.4544
U. of Dayton Michael Tucker michael.tucker@notes.udayton.edu 937.609.9575
U.S. Naval Academy Rob Blanck blanck@usna.edu
UC Davis Megan Strom mcstrom@ucdavis.edu 530 754-8117
UCLA Jillian Ellis
UCLA Mark Carr mcarr@athletics.ucla.edu
UCLA Kat Mertz kmertz@athletics.ucla.edu 310-704-7804
UMASS - Amherst Jim Rudy wsoccer@admin.umass.edu (413) 545-4343
UMASS - Lowell Elie Monteiro Elie_Monteiro@uml.edu 978-934-2346
UMBC Tracy Stalker stalker@umbc.edu
UNC Chapel Hill Chris Ducar ducar@uncaa.unc.edu
UNC Greensboro Eddie Radwanski eddie_rad@uncg.edu
UNC Wilmington Tammy Decesare decesaret@uncw.edu
UNCCharlotte Neil Roberts nroberts@email.uncc.edu
United States Air Force Academy James Burgener james.burgener@usafa.af.mil 719-333-9467
United States Military Academy at West Point Gene Ventriglia wg8129@usma.edu 845-938-4826
Univ. Of Colorado Kelly Lindsey kelly.lindsey@colorado.edu
Univ. of Colorado Paul Hogan Paul.Hogan@colorado.edu 303-735-0530
Univ. Of South Carolina Mat Cosgriff cosgriff@gwm.sc.edu
University At Albany Kalekeni Banda wcorrigan@uamail.albany.edu
University of Alabama Don Staley dstaley@la.Ua.Edu
University of Arizona Harold Warren hwarren@arizona.edu 520-621-2334
University of Arkansas Gordon Henderson gjhende@uark.edu 479-575-2348
University of Arkansas Emily Janss ejanss@uark.,edu 479-575-8485
University of California, Berklee Kevin Boyd boydk@uclink4.berkeley.edu
University of Central Florida Amanda Cromwell acromwel@mail.ucf.edu
University Of Central Florida Colby Hale cahale@mail.ucf.edu
University of Charleston(WV) Todd Diuguid Tdiuguid@earthlink.net
University of Connecticut Len Tsantiris wsoccer@athletics.ath.uconn.edu (860) 486-4204
university of Connecticut Sarah Barnes sarah.barnes@uconn.edu 860-486-3459
University of Connecticut Carey Dorn cdorn@maya.ath.uconn.edu 860-486-4213
University Of Evansville Stefanie Kraay sk68@evansville.edu
University of Florida Becky Burleigh becky@gators.uaa.ufl.edu (352) 375-4683 x5554
University of Georgia Sue Patberg smp@sports.uga.edu 706-372-1956
University of Hartford Eva Bergsten bergsten@mail.hartford.edu (860) 768-4676
University of Hartford Thom Skogland tskoglund@hartford.edu
University of Idaho Arby Busey rbusey@uidaho.edu (208) 885-9438
University of Illinois Eric Bell ericbell@uiuc.edu 217-333-0004
University of Iowa Mark Plakorus mark-plakorus@iowasoccer.com 319-335-9866
University of Kentucky Tim Bennett bennett@uky.edu 859-257-4971
University Of Louisville Karen Ferguson kferguson@louisville.edu
University Of Louisville Tim Nowak tim.nowak@louisville.edu
University of Maryland Shannon Cirovski cirovski@aol.com (301) 314-7034
University Of Miami Tara Schuling tschuling@miami.edu
University Of Miami Tricia Taliaferro ttaliaferro@miami.edu
University of Michigan Dan Dalzochio dalzochi@umich.edu 734-647-7729
University Of Missouri Mikki Denney denneym@missouri.edu
University of Montana Neil Sedgwick neil.sedgwick@mso.umt.edu 406.243.2760
University of Nevada Matt paton mpaton@unr.edu 775-784-6154
University of New Hampshire Michael Jackson mdj@cisunix.unh.edu 603-862-3822
University Of New Haven Brendan Faherty bfaherty@newhaven.edu
University Of North Alabama Graham Winkworth gjwinkworth@una.edu
University of North Alabama Shannon Truxel smtruxel@una.edu
University of Notre Dame Randy Waldrum/Pete LaFleur lafleur.4@nd.edu 574-631-8431/574-631-7516
University of Notre Dame Randy Waldrum waldrum.1@nd.edu (574) 631-3376
University Of Oregon Bill Steffen steffen@oregon.uoreogn.edu
University of Oregon John Galas jgalas@uoregon.edu 541 543 6297
University of Pennsylvania Darren Ambrose dvambros@pobox.upenn.edu 215-898-2923
University of Pennsylvania Chris Kouns cdkouns@pobox.upenn.edu 215-573-6178
University of Rhode Island Geoff Bennett gbe8426u@postoffice.uri.edu 401-874-5233
University of Rhode Island Jackie Hadden haddenjc@yahoo.com
University Of Rhode Island Lisa Cole lcole@mail.uri.edu
University Of Richmond Brooke Sands bsands@richmond.edu
University of San Diego Ada Greenwood hadriang@sandiego.edu 619-260-2306
University of San Diego Theresa Wagner twagner@sandiego.edu 619-260-7591
University of South Carolina Jamie Smith smithjr5@gwm.sc.edu 803 777 1354
University of South Florida Logan Fleck
University Of South Florida Siggi Nagele nagelesp1961@yahoo.com
University of Southern California Jim Millinder millinde@usc.edu 213-740-3849
University of Tampa Bobby Johnston johnstonr@ut.edu 813-253-3333 x3188
University Of Texas Tony Capasso tcapasso@athletics.utexas.edu
University of the Pacific Keith Coleman kcoleman@pacific.edu 209-946-2129
University Of Toledo Lindsay Basalyga lbasaly2@utnet.utoledo.edu
University of Utah Rich Manning rmanning@huntsman.utah.edu 801.585.7250
University of Virginia Hershey Strosberg hstrosberg@virgnia.edu 434-982-5710
University of Washington Lesle Gallimore lesleg@u.washington.edu 206-685-3966
UNIVERSITY Of WEST FLORIDA Joe Bartlinski jbartlinski@uwf.edu
University of Wisconsin Dean Duerst dmd@athletics.wisc.edu (608) 265-2974
University of Wyoming Misty Long mlong@uwyo.edu 307-766-4035
Univesity Of Hawaii Pinsoom Tenzing pinsoom@hawaii.edu
UNLV Dan Abdalla abdalld1@unlv.nevada.edu 702-895-4176
Upper Iowa University Chad Leonard leonardc@uiu.edu
Ursinus College Jeff Ykoruk jykoruk@ursinus.edu
USMA-West Point Jim Jorgensen wj0616@usma.edu 845-938-4598
Utah State University Heather Cairns hcairns@cc.usu.edu 435-797-0900
Villa Julie College Lynette Buffington ath-lynn@mail.vcj.edu
Villanova University Ann Clifton ann.clifton@villanova.edu (610)519-4135
Villanova University Jim McGirr jim.mcgirr@villanova.edu (610)519-4667
Virginia Military Institute Julie Davis davisj@vmi.edu
Virginia Tech Kelly Cagle dcagle@vt.edu
Virginia Tech Dan Cagle dcagle@vt.edu 540.231.6660
Virginia Wesleyan College Jeff Bowers jbowers@vwc.edu
Wagner Hope E Troman htroman@wagner.edu
Washington & Jefferson College Melissa Joseph mjoseph@washjeff.edu
Washington & Lee University Neil Cunningham cunninghamn@wlu.edu
Washington College Suzie Friedrich sfriedrich2@washcoll.edu
Washington State University Matt Potter mjpotter@wsu.edu (509)335-0306
Wellesley Liz Driscoll edriscol@wellesley.edu (781) 283-2012
Wesleyan Universitly Clarissa Clarke cclarke20@hotmail.com
Wesleyan University Holly Wheeler hwheeler@wesleyan.edu
West Chester University Deb Flaherty dflaherty@wcupa.edu
Western Nebraska CC Thom Townsend wnccsoccer@yahoo.com (308) 641-2825
Westminster College Girish Thakar thakarargs@westminster.edu
Wheaton Luis Reis lreis@wheatonma.edu 508-286-3997
Widener Jack Shafer jack_shafer@hotmail.com
William & Mary John Daly jbdaly@wm.edu (757) 221-3387
William Paterson University Keith Woods woodsk@wpunj.edu
William Smith College Mary Guarino guarino@hws.edu
William Woods University Robert Podeyn rpodeyn@williamwoods.edu
Williams College Michelyne Pinard Michelyne.J.Pinard@williams.edu 413-597-4599
Wilmington College Dave Bugda dbugda@aol.com
Wingate University Andy Thompson athompso@wingate.edu
Winthrop University Melissa Heinz Heinzm@winthrop.edu
WV Wesleyan College Anthony James james a@wvwc.edu
Yale Rudy Meredith rudolph.meredith@yale.edu 203-432-1492
York College Vicki Sterner vsterner@ycp.edu

sir alex
06-14-2007, 11:30 AM
Thanks BlueDevil. Busy working on real work today. Sorry. What are they thinking. Great thread everyone.

06-14-2007, 12:05 PM
And here's one big no-no - do not send out an email introducing yourself that is cc:d to multiple coaches. No form letters either; it shows you are not really serious about the schools you are contacting and instead are "fishing" for interest.

Good point. When you send an introductory email or subsequent emails with tournament info, it's always a good idea to personalize it. In the fall, for example, you might congratulate a coach for a recent win or wish him good luck in his upcoming game against State U. Do your homework, go the extra mile. It shows your interest in the school and the program.

Also, it's worthwhile spending time on the website. You can learn a lot: how many seniors will be graduating, how much those seniors played (a reasonable proxy for how much athletic aid they were receiving and, consequently, how much will be freed up for the incoming class), how many seniors and underclassmen play your daughter's position, how many kids typically play in a game (typically 16 or so, but some coaches make more use of their bench, some less). Be an informed consumer.

Finally, here are a couple of links I've found helpful (the second one is especially good):

http://www.ncaa.org

http://www.texasrush.com/frameset.php

With ncaa.org, under Academics & Athletics, click on Eligibility & Recruiting. The Guide for the College-Bound Student-Athlete is especially helpful.

Cujo
06-14-2007, 12:37 PM
here is a good link to New England Schools. www.neasc.org (http://www.neasc.org)

It has links to all major colleges arranged by state.

MASC
06-14-2007, 12:50 PM
Email has become unmanageable for many coaches. Try to keep it down to only those schools that you are really interested in attending. A campus visit when the coach is on campus makes a good impression.

For local colleges such is critical. There are colleges that don't require such that will have no interest in a student who is with-in an easy day trip who doesn't make multiple campus visits.

Don't rely on soccer for money or admission. A men's D1 probgram has 9.5 scholarships (???). These are spread out over the 4 current years. Basically there are at most 3 scholarships available for entering freshmen. There is no money in D2 or D3. What a college coach might be able to accomplish is to get academic scholarships changed to grants, or more academic scholarship money.

Quite frankly, the grants are better than athletic scholarships. They are not tied to grade point averages nor to playing any sports. If the player gets injured, he doesn't lose the grant.

06-14-2007, 01:03 PM
There is no money in D2 or D3.

I agree with D3 but as someone said before they can find you other grants that you wouldn't of received anyways. I disagree with your statement for Div. 11. I know several players in the Northeast Conference that receive on what seems to be an avg. of 5-7 k a year. Someone above also stated 30 -40 % should be expected. I agree that people shouldn't expect anywhere near a full boat. These team would not stay competitive if they didn't give money.

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 01:04 PM
Text messaging has also become huge in college recruiting communications:

* Provides the ability to speak with high schoolers in a medium they use -like, 24/7 and is like, totally kewl

* NCAA restricts most forms of communications but hadn't yet restricted IMs (they are looking to do so and it may have happened in the last 30 days and slipped below my radar)

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 01:06 PM
There is no money in D2 or D3.

I agree with D3 but as someone said before they can find you other grants that you wouldn't of received anyways. I disagree with your statement for Div. 11. I know several players in the Northeast Conference that receive on what seems to be an avg. of 5-7 k a year. Someone above also stated 30 -40 % should be expected. I agree that people shouldn't expect anywhere near a full boat. These team would not stay competitive if they didn't give money.

Pretty sure the Northeast conference is Division 1

06-14-2007, 01:08 PM
This was on a Florida Post. Bright Futures is a Florida scholarship for top students and is 75% of tuition only to State Schools.

There are 14 Scholarships for Girls at D1 schools if they are fully funded. The Bright Futures 75% is not as much money as it sounds. Most state schools tuition for In-state is only around $2500 per year, so if you take 75% of that you would be getting $1875 per year scholarship. It is the room and board that costs money but compared to other states it is a great deal.
For Girls, their is soccer money out there but you need to be proactive and write the coaches and stay in touch with them. Ask them to come see you play and then write to them after that tournament. If you want to go to a big school like Florida or Florida St and play soccer you better be amazing. If you understand your limitations and are flexible then you have a chance.
If you look at the top U18 teams the last couple of years almost all the girls got some sort of soccer money or benefit from soccer. Benefit meaning it gets you into a school that you would not normally get into. Even those top teams sent very few to the Florida's or Florida St type schools. Don't listen to the nay sayer's, let your child follow their dream but there is more to it then playing soccer. You must write to schools and call the coaches, talk to them. Go visit them if possible, be realistic but most of all be a good student. The better student you are the more options you have.

06-14-2007, 01:09 PM
No, Its Div.11

Maybe I should of said Northeast 10?
;)
http://www.northeast10.org/landing/index

06-14-2007, 01:11 PM
Don't rely on soccer for money or admission. A men's D1 probgram has 9.5 scholarships (???). These are spread out over the 4 current years. Basically there are at most 3 scholarships available for entering freshmen. There is no money in D2 or D3. What a college coach might be able to accomplish is to get academic scholarships changed to grants, or more academic scholarship money.

I agree with the essence of your post. A couple of quick corrections: men's D1 programs have 9.9 scholarships to spread across the team (I wonder how the NCAA arrived at such a weird number?). D2 schools most definitely do offer athletic aid. So too do NAIA schools. It is only D3 programs that don't, and, as has previously been pointed out, D3 coaches can often put together academic aid and other grants to attract student-athletes.

06-14-2007, 01:14 PM
If you want to see about the "top" D1 programs and the type of players that they attract take a look at this story:

http://www.soccerbuzz.com/recruits07/to ... sstory.htm (http://www.soccerbuzz.com/recruits07/toprecruitsstory.htm)

ggrevisited
06-14-2007, 01:26 PM
Just a correction on the D3 stuff; the NCAA mandates that athletic department staff/coaches have absolutely nothing to do with whether a student gets financial aid. They can help with finding grants and options, but it is prohibited for coaches to go to the financial aid office and try to get a "package" put together or enhanced for an athlete. In discussing grants and options with the FA office, can't even mention who the athlete is you are asking for.

This is somewhat new, but any coach at a D3 coach who is telling players "I can help you with 'financial aid'" is either committing a violation or just plain BSing.

Blue Devil
06-14-2007, 01:30 PM
No, Its Div.11

Maybe I should of said Northeast 10?
;)
http://www.northeast10.org/landing/index

Yes you are right Northeast 10 is D2 - but the Northeast Conference is D1 for men and women

sir alex
06-14-2007, 01:41 PM
There is no money in D2.Absolutely wrong on this one MASC. In fact, I would say D2 is the way to go for the middle of the road D1 player. More playing time, more money. I have one player at St Rose and one at SNHU and both have significant athletic scholarships. I worked with their parents on the paperwork.

MASC
06-14-2007, 02:05 PM
I understand that the coaches do give out partial scholarships. I have been through the process with my children and know what is available and the pressure on the players and coaches to make the perfect decision. Scholarship players must play and must produce immediately.

On the Women's side maybe some money in D2. D2 has far less scholarships across programs. On the Men's side many of the Northeast-10 schools do not provide any athletic money for soccer. What few athletic scholarships exist go to other sports. Most of these schools also have football, basketbal and hockey programs. Some of these even generate revenue!

Title IX has really made a mess of things. JV and freshman programs are gone. Men have lost several sports, e.g. Providence and Baseball.

The money is on the women's side of the house. Maybe this is why there are few parents of boys posting on the forums.

Being well OTH, freshmen (me) were ineligible for varsity or JV. It was really positive. We played on the freshman team. Athletes had a chance to get acclimated to college academically, socially and athletically with far less pressure. In HS we used to play the local college freshman teams, e.g. BC and Harvard.

ggrevisited
06-14-2007, 02:07 PM
Title IX has made a mess of things? Excuse me?

I'm sorry if a men's freshmen soccer team was eliminated so that a women's varsity team could be supported...are you kidding with that statement?

pitch420
06-14-2007, 02:10 PM
Title IX has really made a mess of things.

http://www.npboards.com/img/avatars/5.jpg

Because it was so much better & fair before Title IX? I'm sure I'm interpreting this statement wrong.

MASC
06-14-2007, 02:35 PM
Title IX created an immediate false equality that has taken many years to fill the queue was quality female athletes.

The responses here have been so far totally knee jerk PC. No thought. Just the usual PC ridicule of a non-PC view.

I was coaching a women's varsity sport at D1 colleges prior to Title IX. It was an up hill climb, but the difference was that women's sports were treated on an equal footing with men's sports. To gain varsity status there was a sequence of steps. A men's sport, e.g. lacrosse, had to go through the same process as a woman's sport.

It wasn't the false numbers game that existed after Title IX.

Women's sports would have made significant progress without the prop of Title IX.

06-14-2007, 02:43 PM
I worked with their parents on the paperwork

Sir ALex,

What type of paperwork are you talking about?

Cujo
06-14-2007, 02:51 PM
There is no money in D2 or D3.

I agree with D3 but as someone said before they can find you other grants that you wouldn't of received anyways. I disagree with your statement for Div. 11. I know several players in the Northeast Conference that receive on what seems to be an avg. of 5-7 k a year. Someone above also stated 30 -40 % should be expected. I agree that people shouldn't expect anywhere near a full boat. These team would not stay competitive if they didn't give money.

Pretty sure the Northeast conference is Division 1

D2's can give athletic scholarships. Less than d1 but more than d3 which is zero

MASC
06-14-2007, 02:59 PM
Title IX has made a mess of things? Excuse me?

I'm sorry if a men's freshmen soccer team was eliminated so that a women's varsity team could be supported...are you kidding with that statement?

I never said that the women's team shouldn't have been funded.

Would it be better for the freshmen, men and women to have a freshman team? Is freshman eligibility at D1 the best solution?

The PC view is that Title IX was a perfect solution. It hasn't been.

To point out that not everything that is part of the legacy of Title IX was good is not a knock against women's sport.

ggrevisited
06-14-2007, 03:09 PM
MASC,
You said it made a mess of things; that seems to be a knock.

My reaction was not knee-jerk; it is because of Title IX that the women of my generation had many of the opportunities to play college soccer that were not there before it. And now as a coach and administrator, I can CLEARLY see that without it there would not be the equal treatment of mens and womens sports at some schools. That is a sad reality, but a reality just the same.

We have a new lacrosse team that is currently club; going through the same steps the men's team had to in order to become varsity. So again I wonder if your experience with Title IX is a bit out of date?

06-14-2007, 03:41 PM
I think T!tle IX is fine, no not perfect but it is working fine. I really believe that if it weren't for T!tle IX womens sports would be very far behind. If you want to look at mens sports, just take a look at Football and see how it is funded. It is amazing the budgets of some of these schools.

highbury
06-14-2007, 04:58 PM
MASC

FYI, when Providence baseball was eliminated so too was a ton of funding/scholarships on the women's side of things. I know for a fact women's volleyball lost all their scholarship money(perhaps 8 or so scholarships??) and dropped out of the Big-East. I believe women's tennis was similarly effected. Lots of funds were cut - not just on the men's side. Baseball was just the sport that received all the publicity.

06-14-2007, 09:21 PM
Women's soccer is great to watch and the athletes are phenominal.
Women's ice hockey is a bore, but is growing so fat.

Cujo
06-15-2007, 06:50 AM
MASC

FYI, when Providence baseball was eliminated so too was a ton of funding/scholarships on the women's side of things. I know for a fact women's volleyball lost all their scholarship money(perhaps 8 or so scholarships??) and dropped out of the Big-East. I believe women's tennis was similarly effected. Lots of funds were cut - not just on the men's side. Baseball was just the sport that received all the publicity.

It is unfortunate, PC baseball has produced a number of pros, most notably John McDonald of the Blue Jays, PC's decision is perplexing and aggravating. It is not as if they are hurting for money. It is easy to understand dropping football as it is expensive, but baseball? How much does it cost to run a team. All they have to do is accept one or two more incoming freshman and the team is paid for. Their cheerleading budget is more than their baseballs teams ever was.

highbury
06-15-2007, 08:07 AM
Cujo - I too was disappointed when PC baseball was eliminated. They had a very storied history that went back many years. My husbands grandfather remembers watching them play the Red Sox...

Cujo
06-15-2007, 08:56 AM
Cujo - I too was disappointed when PC baseball was eliminated. They had a very storied history that went back many years. My husbands grandfather remembers watching them play the Red Sox...

I agree - similarly disappointing was UNH's dropping of baseball which produced many fine players. I play in the Seacoast Men's Baseball League and many of our better players came from UNH. Some of these guys are in their late 40's and can still throw an 80 mph fastball

ggrevisited
06-15-2007, 09:10 AM
Boy we got off topic...reminds me of the old "touchline"...sorry for contributing to that by jumping on MASC...

Here's another thing on the college search (as I'm going over my current recruits)...I have to say I really don't care if you won state cup at U13. I actually almost don't care if you won it at U17 either...what I care about is that when you are taking off that team that you are comfortable with and have played with and are surrounded by great players on, can you play at the college level? Can you last 90 minutes physically and mentally (make adjustments, make decisions, etc)? Can you play in the system we play in?

I've had quite a few players come who, because of their high school/club/etc success on a very good team think they will be a starter. Then they find out that a) there are limited substitutions b) we play a different system of play then they are used to, etc.

No matter what it says on your soccer bio or what achievements you have up until college, the one thing, the most important thing once you get in to a college coach is can you play?

06-15-2007, 09:40 AM
I agree with the essence of your post. A couple of quick corrections: men's D1 programs have 9.9 scholarships to spread across the team (I wonder how the NCAA arrived at such a weird number?). D2 schools most definitely do offer athletic aid. So too do NAIA schools. It is only D3 programs that don't, and, as has previously been pointed out, D3 coaches can often put together academic aid and other grants to attract student-athletes.[/quote]


Quick correction to you...FULLY FUNDED men's and women's DI soccer programs have 9.9 scholarships. MANY D1 schools have much less than 9.9 schoalrships to offer. For example, the UMASS womens program is fully funded at 9.9, but the men at UMASS have less than a third of that!

06-15-2007, 09:52 AM
Quick correction to you...FULLY FUNDED men's and women's DI soccer programs have 9.9 scholarships. MANY D1 schools have much less than 9.9 schoalrships to offer. For example, the UMASS womens program is fully funded at 9.9, but the men at UMASS have less than a third of that!

Well, actually FULLY FUNDED women's DI soccer programs have 14 scholarships. You are right about the men.

06-17-2007, 08:19 PM
From Got Soccer forum:

"One of my daughters went to a D-1 school on a 1/3 scholarship and made all newcomer team her first season. Second season she made all conference 1st team. She got an upgrade to her stipend that brought her up to almost half ride last year but this year only got $500. She has played every second of every game for two years straight. Am I crazy for expecting better from this school?"

Welcome to college soccer.

Cujo
06-18-2007, 08:35 AM
From Got Soccer forum:

"One of my daughters went to a D-1 school on a 1/3 scholarship and made all newcomer team her first season. Second season she made all conference 1st team. She got an upgrade to her stipend that brought her up to almost half ride last year but this year only got $500. She has played every second of every game for two years straight. Am I crazy for expecting better from this school?"

Welcome to college soccer.

many college coaches are notorious for falling in love with their incoming freshman and out of love with their juniors. This is easy to pick out as most college websites have roster listings going back a few years. You can do your homework on this. Any team with extreme turnover from one year to the next should be suspect.

06-18-2007, 11:36 AM
...what I care about is that when you are taking off that team that you are comfortable with and have played with and are surrounded by great players on, can you play at the college level? Can you last 90 minutes physically and mentally... ? Can you play in the system we play in?
As an evaluator of future players, how do you guesstimate the answers to those questions? By watching tournament games? Talking to coaches you trust?

ggrevisited
06-18-2007, 11:53 AM
Attending tournament games (and more than one) is important as I want to see the player perform in what should be a competitive game. The issue with a lot of high school games is they can be very lopsided and therefore not a great indicator...I'm not a huge fan of video/DVD but sometimes it serves as at least that first look for out-of-state players.

Also, input from coaches is invaluable in most cases...and especially coaches that I know and trust...in many cases that is more important than what I may see a player do in a game.

It's usually a guesstimate, but if you do your homework and find out about the kid's character as well (in our case that is a very important factor) you can usually guess well...

beentheredonethat
06-20-2007, 08:19 AM
"One of my daughters went to a D-1 school on a 1/3 scholarship and made all newcomer team her first season. Second season she made all conference 1st team. She got an upgrade to her stipend that brought her up to almost half ride last year but this year only got $500. She has played every second of every game for two years straight. Am I crazy for expecting better from this school?"

Welcome to college soccer.


No matter how altruistic the concept may come across, college sports are about money. No matter what the level, winning equates to fund raising. Parents need to realize that when their kid is receiving aide that is tied to their performance on a sport team they have entered into what can be a very demanding business relationship with the institution. As one of my coaches once told me my performance directly related to his ability to put food on his kids table. Produce or perish. It can be a merciless process

I've had quite a few players come who, because of their high school/club/etc success on a very good team think they will be a starter. Then they find out that a) there are limited substitutions b) we play a different system of play then they are used to, etc.


This is one area where most athletes get very little if any advice. Most are just pleased as punch that someone is interested in them and they do little if any homework on where they potentially fit in. Trust me, that is as important and the aide package. Back in the day I was a highly recruited football player. Picked one of the top universities in the country with a bad football program. Big mistake. Though I played a lot of football for them, I didn't fit their system and was constantly being criticized for what I did well (which was make tackles). In hindsight I wish someone had pointed out to me that the system I played in in HS had different personnel types than the one I chose for college. It would have really altered my thought making process.

Cujo
06-20-2007, 09:23 AM
[quote]
"One of my daughters went to a D-1 school on a 1/3 scholarship and made all newcomer team her first season. Second season she made all conference 1st team. She got an upgrade to her stipend that brought her up to almost half ride last year but this year only got $500. She has played every second of every game for two years straight. Am I crazy for expecting better from this school?"

Welcome to college soccer.


No matter how altruistic the concept may come across, college sports are about money. No matter what the level, winning equates to fund raising. Parents need to realize that when their kid is receiving aide that is tied to their performance on a sport team they have entered into what can be a very demanding business relationship with the institution. As one of my coaches once told me my performance directly related to his ability to put food on his kids table. Produce or perish. It can be a merciless process

I've had quite a few players come who, because of their high school/club/etc success on a very good team think they will be a starter. Then they find out that a) there are limited substitutions b) we play a different system of play then they are used to, etc.


This is one area where most athletes get very little if any advice. Most are just pleased as punch that someone is interested in them and they do little if any homework on where they potentially fit in. Trust me, that is as important and the aide package. Back in the day I was a highly recruited football player. Picked one of the top universities in the country with a bad football program. Big mistake. Though I played a lot of football for them, I didn't fit their system and was constantly being criticized for what I did well (which was make tackles). In hindsight I wish someone had pointed out to me that the system I played in in HS had different personnel types than the one I chose for college. It would have really altered my thought making process.[/quote:1hopotfz]

In the previous posts criticism was leveled at the state coach who apparently mispoke about how many kids would get soccer money in college or that would play d1 ball. I am wondering if he was referring to how many would be doing it as seniors in college. One of the biggest adjusments that elite athletes have to make is being top dog in the pound when they are 17 and then at 18 walking into a situation where there are 20 other top dogs. The ability of the player to handle this situation is heavily influenced by the way they were raised by their parents and what perspective they were given towards the role sports was to play in their lives. In his heart my brother was disappointed that his son turned down D1 money at UNH. That being said he looked him square in the eye and told him that he respected and supported his decision.

beentheredonethat
07-04-2007, 05:38 PM
Hopefully some of you can give some advice on this issue. My daughter is a rising sophmore. She wants to go to school in either the Southeast or Mid-Atlantic states. We go on vacation down in that area every summer so this summer I was thinking it might make sense to visit a couple of the nearby colleges that may be of some interest to her. Our reason for doing this actually is more about her academic choices than soccer. That said soccer will more than likely play some factor in her decision making process come application time. The question that I have is should we bother to contact the soccer coach at these schools?

07-04-2007, 05:49 PM
Hopefully some of you can give some advice on this issue. My daughter is a rising sophmore. She wants to go to school in either the Southeast or Mid-Atlantic states. We go on vacation down in that area every summer so this summer I was thinking it might make sense to visit a couple of the nearby colleges that may be of some interest to her. Our reason for doing this actually is more about her academic choices than soccer. That said soccer will more than likely play some factor in her decision making process come application time. The question that I have is should we bother to contact the soccer coach at these schools?


Absolutely, write the coach and let them know what tournaments you are going too. Make sure when you go visit these schools to have an appointment with the coach. Be realistic though and remember anything before her senior year are considered unofficial visits and you must pay all your own expenses (even lunch).
Do not be afraid to ask questions or better yet have your daughter ask questions. They really like to communicate with the player and it is good to watch your child grow. Good Luck.

If by some chance you visit a school without an appointment with the coach, don't be afraid to go knock on the door. The coach will try to accomodate you. Always have your profile available and with you.

beentheredonethat
07-04-2007, 05:56 PM
I'm assuming that an email would be the appropriate contact mechanism. Any recommendations on what she should say in the body of it? At her grade level what is a coach interested in learning about a player?

07-04-2007, 06:06 PM
I'm assuming that an email would be the appropriate contact mechanism. Any recommendations on what she should say in the body of it? At her grade level what is a coach interested in learning about a player?

Emails are fine but make sure you stay in touch. Not just one email, if you are interested you should email them and keep them updated on your season. Let them know you are interested in their school.

beentheredonethat
07-04-2007, 07:39 PM
What should she say to the coach?

07-05-2007, 09:43 AM
What should she say to the coach?

Just be polite and have her state that she is interested in the school and state a little about herself. Maybe attach her profile etc.

Mention the club she is playing on and upcoming events that her team will be attending. The coach can respond to your emails.

My daughter joined soccerincollege.com and all the coaches emails were there. It saved alot of time looking stuff up.

07-05-2007, 09:48 AM
What should she say to the coach?

Just be polite and have her state that she is interested in the school and state a little about herself. Maybe attach her profile etc.

Mention the club she is playing on and upcoming events that her team will be attending. The coach can respond to your emails.

My daughter joined soccerincollege.com and all the coaches emails were there. It saved alot of time looking stuff up.

One last thing, it is not necessary to join something like Soccerincollege, all the coaches info is online but it does make it easier. They answer many of your questions.

07-05-2007, 10:10 AM
I have a child going through the process now as she just finished her Jr. year. I do think the soccer in college web site is worth the fifty bucks a year. We did start early (in her late Sophmore early Junior year.) She is a Div. 11 player. So unless you have one of those that the coaches will be falling over(Div. 1) than it is a little early to start as a sophmore. These coaches change a lot and really will not look at a sophmore unless they are one of the top players around. But it can't hurt to start the prcocess and educate yourself. You will need to market, market and market the heck out her down the road.

MASC
07-05-2007, 11:49 AM
The interview process with the coach is bi-directional. The student athlete needs to be comfortable with coach.

Don't lock your self in too early. Mentally don't make a specific soccer program the end goal and fall in love with that program. As stated, coaches change. I don't know the average time at a position, but sophomore year to freshman in college is a long time.

My son after meeting some coaches became enthusiastic about their programs and after talking with others lost all interest in the college. The interview process is a wonderful growth opportunity.

Email works, but many times a phone call is helpful. Most coaches are not on campus every day. Don't expect to meet a coach without an appointment, although one can sometimes get lucky.

Above all, don't let soccer be the main factor in choosing the college. The soccer season is very short. There are still the academic and social aspects of the college to consider. If the academics and social are unsatisfactory, soccer will not compensate.

ggrevisited
07-05-2007, 02:16 PM
Warning - shameless plug, admitted...

Salem State Women's Soccer is offering a great opportunity for HS aged players to work with college coaches this summer. The team training camp, being held July 30-Aug 3rd, and is accepting individual players to be added to the "advanced training" group during the week. The camp will run from 6-9 pm, and the staff boasts several college coaches from all 3 divisions.

For more info, http://www.salemstate.edu/athletics/doc ... p_info.pdf (http://www.salemstate.edu/athletics/docs/girls_soccer_camp_info.pdf)

Coaches confirmed so far include:
Mary-Frances Munroe, UAlbany
Kelly Kelly, Bentley College
Christine McCarey, Mass Maritime
Kristin Shaw, Southern Vermont

This is a good opportunity for players hoping to play in college to get coached and mentored by current coaches in the women's game. And these coaches will "coach", not just be at camp. Each will be assigned a training group for the entire week, and will also interact with campers during nightly special topics sessions.

07-05-2007, 04:00 PM
I think he was saying he was taking his daughter to look at colleges anyway. That is pretty common and a good idea. Soccer should not be the only reason to attend a school, academics are much more important.

Your sophmore year is not to early to start looking at schools. Many people take their kids on vacations and visit many campus's. There is nothing wrong with talking to coaches when you do this.
Many kids are commiting in their Junior Year these day's but don't let the schools force you into it.

beentheredonethat
07-22-2007, 06:38 PM
My daughter is going to visit a couple of colleges in the next few weeks. Can someone give me some advice on what sort of questions she should ask the coach? What are fair questions and what is unfair to ask?

07-22-2007, 08:04 PM
Here is one reference:

http://www.brucebrownlee.com/college/what_to_ask.htm

Blue Devil
07-22-2007, 08:18 PM
I would suggest that she do as much homework on the school to be visited before the visit and perhaps have a binder with her research and page of questions. Coaches like to see players who take the prep time and are proactive.

List of questions:

* What do you look for and expect from your players?

* What type of players fit well in your system? What types don't?

* Where might I reasonably fit on your team? (She should be able to find out the type of sytem they play and the number of returning players prior to the visit)


* What do you expect the recruiting class to be and where do I fit within it?


* If D1 or D2 - based on similar situations with existing players what is reasonable with respect to financial aid - soccer money, grants, financial aid etc. ?

* What is the time commitment required of players and how does that fit with the school load?

* I just want to validate this is a fit academically?

* xxx is what I am interested in studying. Can you suggest the best resource for me to learn about that program at your school?

* Are there any academic assistance available for players in season? What is the school academic policy regarding classes missed for athletic travel?

* What percentage of players play all four (5 if redshirt) years with your team - (If the team is mostly comprised of freshman & sophomores there is usually a reason) (She should also know how long the coach has been with that school prior to the visit)

beentheredonethat
07-23-2007, 09:12 AM
What percentage of players play all four (5 if redshirt) years with your team - (If the team is mostly comprised of freshman & sophomores there is usually a reason) (She should also know how long the coach has been with that school prior to the visit)

I understand that in many programs there is a drop off after the sophmore year. What is a realistic percentage?

Also is it fair to ask how many players on the roster receive aide from the school?

Blue Devil
07-23-2007, 09:27 AM
I don't know the answer to the realistic percentage. Maybe one of the current college coaches can supply this information. But for a player making this decision they should look for a program that has track record of keeping a high percentage of their players with the program.

I think the aid question is a fair one but would only ask it after the coach coach was sure of my genuine interest in the school and program. In my experience coaches do not mind the question from players who want to go to their school; but are turned off by players who appear to be too concerned about money at the early stages fo the recruitment process.

Good luck to your daughter.

07-23-2007, 03:17 PM
Please make sure your child is chosing the college for the college and it's academics first not just for the soccer. They are living there for 4 years and it's their home away from home. What If anything was to happen and they couldn't play anymore? It's something to think about.
We found that the academic scholarships were a better way to go because they can't take those away unless your GPA drops. Soccer they can decrease your scholarship from year to year and sometimes decrease it to nothing. Our daughter attends a nationally ranked D3 college and she has all academic scholarships and grants. It worked out to be just as much better than what some of the D1 and D2 colleges offered her. She chose the college because she fell in love with the college and the programs they had to offer. Soccer is the bonus.
Her team made it to Sweet 16 this past fall and what a thrill.

beentheredonethat
07-23-2007, 04:02 PM
Please make sure your child is chosing the college for the college and it's academics first not just for the soccer. They are living there for 4 years and it's their home away from home. What If anything was to happen and they couldn't play anymore? It's something to think about.
We found that the academic scholarships were a better way to go because they can't take those away unless your GPA drops. Soccer they can decrease your scholarship from year to year and sometimes decrease it to nothing. Our daughter attends a nationally ranked D3 college and she has all academic scholarships and grants. It worked out to be just as much better than what some of the D1 and D2 colleges offered her. She chose the college because she fell in love with the college and the programs they had to offer. Soccer is the bonus.
Her team made it to Sweet 16 this past fall and what a thrill.

Great advice!! My sports career ended with a dislocated neck. I am convinced that if the school didn't fear a malpractice suite (the team doctor diagnosed my inury as a pinched nerve and I played 3 games with it) I would have had my scholarship pulled. Parents need to realize that college sports are far more merciless than they think.

08-06-2007, 02:21 PM
My daughter is expecting an offer from a top Div. 11 college soon. What is the normal range we should expect in Div. 11, so we can judge the offer. Someone said a while back 30-50 percent. Is that accurate and is that just off tuition or tuition and room and board?

pitch420
08-06-2007, 02:45 PM
My daughter is expecting an offer from a top Div. 11 college soon. What is the normal range we should expect in Div. 11, so we can judge the offer. Someone said a while back 30-50 percent. Is that accurate and is that just off tuition or tuition and room and board?

Congratulations to your daughter regardless of the amount

08-06-2007, 04:15 PM
I am the parent of two college children. Both played d-1 MAPLE and also played soccer in college, one as a d2 player the other as d3. We were appropriately advised to choose schools based on fit and academic choices. One stopped playing after two years, my other child is still playing as a junior. If soccer had been the sole focus I believe it would have been difficult for the one who stopped playing to stay at this school.

Both of my children received academic money along with a federal loan and work study... I tend to think this is more the norm based on our experience and discussions with other parents. Can't stress enough the importance of academics in this process as there is much more money to be offered by schools this way than through their athletic programs. The only catch to academic money is that minimum GPA is usually required ... there are some rare no strings academic money say... if you are a female attending a predominately male school.

Within the NE-10 (d-2) there is much disparity between the programs on who has money and who does not... the most I have heard is $6,000/yr all the way down to $0 (FPC aside - anyway they usually go after foreign nationals). A few have no scholarships but have the ability to offer up to $2,000 grants through the athletic dept. If you can meet the financial test schools can offer needs based scholarships as well... I have heard of one instance where a child was able to parlay a need based grant, soccer /softball money and academic money into roughly the equivalent of 75%... got to believe this is a difficult balance between athletics and academics though.

Also, the stories are very true for players to have their soccer $ reduced by their junior year... due to the new incoming freshman hotshot... regardless of how you are performing on the field.

Hope this info helps.

08-06-2007, 04:58 PM
I hope others chime in with answers to the money question from the poster whose daughter is expecting an offer soon, but I hope he/she doesn't mind if I pose another question about college soccer as well. (two threads - or 3 or 4 - in one)

Can one clearly identify or predict the actual differences in quality of soccer between Div. 1, 2 or 3 schools? I would imagine there are some larger schools who are division 1 based primarily on size, but smaller D-3 schools like Wheaton or (Div 2?) Franklin Pierce might have a higher quality soccer program (including coaching) than some underperforming Division 1 school's program? Is that accurate?

I have never really understood how a school is designated as Div 1-3 anyway, besides the size factor which is purely an assumption on my part. And once that designation is made, is it across the board for all sports or can a school have a Div. 3 women's soccer program and a Div 1 football program? (Excuse my ignorance, I actually did play a sport in college but I never paid any attention to the division, I just chose the college because it was the best one I got into -- and anyway I got hurt after sophomore year and never played again... another example of choosing primarily for academics as I think many posters have said before).

I guess the question would be, in a scenario where a player is choosing between two schools that have identical academics, course choices, equivalent money, etc. (recognizing that there is no athletic money at the Div. 3 - remember this is just a scenario) -- ie. , all other factors being equal, could they IN GENERAL expect a better quality soccer experience (again assuming they could expect the same playing time, etc. at either) at a Div. 1 school mid-to-bottom of the Div. 1 list or a Div 2 school mid-to-top of the Div. 2 list (or a very top Div. 3 school)? Of course each school, coaching, make-up of players is different and would go into the decision but I am really asking the question in terms of generalities.

And I guess a side question is: Which are the best conferences for men's and women's soccer across the nation? (After all, the competition you play counts as a factor in the "quality" category).

keeper
08-06-2007, 05:51 PM
First, many programs are not fully funded and foreign nationals receive full packages since going to college at home would be free. Next, many packages are combined with academic money and need based scholarships. If your going to get academic money, the soccer money can be less. It's a balancing act done with the Financial Aid office and the Athletic dept. Academic money is much easier to keep for four years. Athletic money has A LOT of fine print and seldom stays the same for four years and can be cut mid year with an injury.

Most the awards I've heard about (not the full ride lies everybody seems to tell) are block amounts and not percentages of total cost (tuition + room and board + expenses, including travel). Those blocks can be from $500 to $10K. Those amounts come as part of a complete financial aid package. Most coaches I've gotten to know, like to spread the money to as many players as possible, even if the amount is very small. Better that everybody feels like they at least got something.

BTW, D3 coaches don't have the same pot of money, but many work very to get students the best financial aid package possible. You would be surprised how many "academic scholarships" are dedicated towards Athletes.

It may not be money, but the fact the some coaches help get the player into the school does have a lot of value, in and of itself.

As you compare offers, don't just look at the amounts, compare the fine print as well. Also don't listen to what anyone else tells you they got, a lot of people just lie.

Good-luck




.

beentheredonethat
08-07-2007, 09:22 AM
Another issue to take into account is the likelihood of a coaching change. Coaching changes happen for all sorts of reasons ranging from poor performance to retirement and are not necessarily predictable.

When a coaching change happens there are usually dramatic changes within the program and these changes can have a very negative impact on the player's situation. This is especially true with the money part of the equation but they can have an impact on a player's playing situation as well. Also consider that any sort of verbal agreement or "understanding" that the player may have with the prior coach will almost certainly leave with that coach.

All the more reason to put more weight in the choice of school upon the academic and social fit rather than the athletic fit.

08-07-2007, 10:49 AM
Keeper's post makes some excellant points. Parents should listen to what others experiences have been, but take them with a grain of salt.

For what ever reason people love to imply/lie that they or their child has received a "full ride"when that is simply not the case. Also, coaches can have an influence in the admissions office - if say you are applying to a "reach school." (some influence - there still must be something to work with grade wise - a 1600 is probably not going to make it in at Williams) Lastly, as Keeper posted read the fine print - some academic scholarships are based on % of tuition cost and others are not - they are just flat dollar amounts. These flat lumps sum amounts do not adjust annually as the school implements tuition increases every year (2 -4%) - where the % of tuition scholarships do track with these inevitable annual increases.

In response to another posters question on divisional levels - yes it is possible for a school to compete at d1 in one sport and lower levels for others - I have seen where hockey programs compete at d1 and other sports are are say d2 (U-Mass Lowell, Merrimack College are examples of this) Also, yes there are some very high quality soccer programs at the d2 and d3 level - the two schools that were cited FPC and Wheaton are usually quite good within their respective divisional levels. IMO the NE-10 (d2) is a very competitive soccer conference for both the men and women.

ggrevisited
08-07-2007, 02:23 PM
I realize this may sound like a Cujo comment, but here's some more advice for those of you whose daughters or sons are getting ready to leave for their first pre-season of college soccer - if there is a question about something, anything like "what about the days I have orientation?" or "do we get to live on campus for pre-season" or "when will first cuts be made" etc etc etc...PLEASE have your son or daughter call or email the coach directly. They are about to leave the nest, and need to be capable of communicating for themselves. It is very difficult to spend half the day answering questions from parents that have been addressed already in communication with the student-athletes, via email or on the phone, etc.

tooslowtball
08-08-2007, 07:46 AM
Going into their freshmen year of high school, my two best athletic players decided they were going to play field hockey instead of soccer. Their parents and them decided that they had a better chance to play varsity as freshmen on the field hockey team than the soccer team. I think their assesment of the situation was correct (and i told them so) but they would definately start as sophs. I also think (but I am not sure)one failed to make a top level Maple team that year and the other did not like the time commitment of Maple because she played three sports, they both played three sports.

To make a long story short they both got Div 1 scholarships in spite of or because they got did not play maple. Could they have got to the same colleges if they played soccer or specifically Maple, I honesty don't think so, but I will never know for sure. They did develop some unbelievable skills in their four years of High School so they may have. They were a lot more aggresive with a stick in their hand than they ever were in soccer. I am sure Cujo has seen this situation.

The different path they took gave them an excellent opportunity and they did not have to give up other sports that they loved. I also think that playing the other sports prevented them from losing their passion for Field hockey and generally made them happier.

The pool of players going for a limited amount of scholarships is a lot higher in soccer than field hockey. I think but am unsure that the # of shcolarships for field hockey is about the same as womens soccer in Div 1 schools in the NE. I think this is because they have to balance out the scholarships for mens basketball, football, hockey, etc.

I still don't understand the game though, but i like the uniforms.

Cujo
08-08-2007, 08:02 AM
Going into their freshmen year of high school, my two best athletic players decided they were going to play field hockey instead of soccer. Their parents and them decided that they had a better chance to play varsity as freshmen on the field hockey team than the soccer team. I think their assesment of the situation was correct (and i told them so) but they would definately start as sophs. I also think (but I am not sure)one failed to make a top level Maple team that year and the other did not like the time commitment of Maple because she played three sports, they both played three sports.

To make a long story short they both got Div 1 scholarships in spite of or because they got did not play maple. Could they have got to the same colleges if they played soccer or specifically Maple, I honesty don't think so, but I will never know for sure. They did develop some unbelievable skills in their four years of High School so they may have. They were a lot more aggresive with a stick in their hand than they ever were in soccer. I am sure Cujo has seen this situation.

The different path they took gave them an excellent opportunity and they did not have to give up other sports that they loved. I also think that playing the other sports prevented them from losing their passion for Field hockey and generally made them happier.

The pool of players going for a limited amount of scholarships is a lot higher in soccer than field hockey. I think but am unsure that the # of shcolarships for field hockey is about the same as womens soccer in Div 1 schools in the NE. I think this is because they have to balance out the scholarships for mens basketball, football, hockey, etc.

I still don't understand the game though, but i like the uniforms.

Try as I might, I can never discern in field hockey why a whistle is blown, or why it is not. I prefer baseball to all other sports because the rules are absolute and beyond question.

keeper
08-08-2007, 08:54 AM
Going into their freshmen year of high school, my two best athletic players decided they were going to play field hockey instead of soccer. Their parents and them decided that they had a better chance to play varsity as freshmen on the field hockey team than the soccer team. I think their assesment of the situation was correct (and i told them so) but they would definately start as sophs. I also think (but I am not sure)one failed to make a top level Maple team that year and the other did not like the time commitment of Maple because she played three sports, they both played three sports.

To make a long story short they both got Div 1 scholarships in spite of or because they got did not play maple. Could they have got to the same colleges if they played soccer or specifically Maple, I honesty don't think so, but I will never know for sure. They did develop some unbelievable skills in their four years of High School so they may have. They were a lot more aggresive with a stick in their hand than they ever were in soccer. I am sure Cujo has seen this situation.

The different path they took gave them an excellent opportunity and they did not have to give up other sports that they loved. I also think that playing the other sports prevented them from losing their passion for Field hockey and generally made them happier.

The pool of players going for a limited amount of scholarships is a lot higher in soccer than field hockey. I think but am unsure that the # of shcolarships for field hockey is about the same as womens soccer in Div 1 schools in the NE. I think this is because they have to balance out the scholarships for mens basketball, football, hockey, etc.

I still don't understand the game though, but i like the uniforms.

Try as I might, I can never discern in field hockey why a whistle is blown, or why it is not. I prefer baseball to all other sports because the rules are absolute and beyond question.

Field hockey is hard to follow. but I really don't understand girls lacrosse. They give you a stick and then don't let you use it. ;)




.

FSM
08-08-2007, 10:21 AM
Perhaps this takes the discussion in a bit of a different direction, (or maybe puts it back on track) but I thought it might be of interest. A while ago, the Worcester Telegram listed the percentage of students who apply and than get in to a college based on Fall 2006 numbers The focus was on Central Mass colleges, but others were included for comparison sake.

100%
Atlantic Union
Mount Wachusett CC
Quinsigamond CC

89.9%
Anna Maria

81.2%
Nichols

80.7%
Johnson & Wales

74.4%
Assumption

71%
UMass Amherst

70%
Becker

69.9%
Curry College

67.1%
Fitchburg State

66.6%
WPI

61.6%
Penn State

60.7%
Framingham State

59.8%
Clark University

56.7%
Boston University

55.8%
Worcester State

53.1%
Smith

51.1%
UConn

47,2%
Emerson

42.7%
Villanova

37.5%
George Washington

33.7%
Carnegie Mellon

29.1
Boston College

27.3%
Notre Dame

26.8%
Tufts

23.7%
Duke

19.1%
Williams

18.6%
Amherst

15.7%
Dartmouth

13.8%
Brown

13.3%
MIT

10.2%
Princeton

9.7%
Yale

8.9%
Harvard

Cujo
08-08-2007, 11:07 AM
I realize this may sound like a Cujo comment, but here's some more advice for those of you whose daughters or sons are getting ready to leave for their first pre-season of college soccer - if there is a question about something, anything like "what about the days I have orientation?" or "do we get to live on campus for pre-season" or "when will first cuts be made" etc etc etc...PLEASE have your son or daughter call or email the coach directly. They are about to leave the nest, and need to be capable of communicating for themselves. It is very difficult to spend half the day answering questions from parents that have been addressed already in communication with the student-athletes, via email or on the phone, etc.


Coaches cringe at the thought of the overwhelming number of Hueys, Chinooks, and Blackhawks that they have to deal with these days.

Cujo
08-08-2007, 11:09 AM
Perhaps this takes the discussion in a bit of a different direction, (or maybe puts it back on track) but I thought it might be of interest. A while ago, the Worcester Telegram listed the percentage of students who apply and than get in to a college based on Fall 2006 numbers The focus was on Central Mass colleges, but others were included for comparison sake.

100%
Atlantic Union
Mount Wachusett CC
Quinsigamond CC

89.9%
Anna Maria

81.2%
Nichols

80.7%
Johnson & Wales

74.4%
Assumption

71%
UMass Amherst

70%
Becker

69.9%
Curry College

67.1%
Fitchburg State

66.6%
WPI

61.6%
Penn State

60.7%
Framingham State

59.8%
Clark University

56.7%
Boston University

55.8%
Worcester State

53.1%
Smith

51.1%
UConn

47,2%
Emerson

42.7%
Villanova

37.5%
George Washington

33.7%
Carnegie Mellon

29.1
Boston College

27.3%
Notre Dame

26.8%
Tufts

23.7%
Duke

19.1%
Williams

18.6%
Amherst

15.7%
Dartmouth

13.8%
Brown

13.3%
MIT

10.2%
Princeton

9.7%
Yale

8.9%
Harvard

does this include night school and extension schools. Those could skew numbers...

two-three-five
08-08-2007, 07:44 PM
Edit: I have been duly corrected below by FSM -
I did not get what these numbers were attempting to show.

FSM: Not trying to be picky, but these numbers just do not look right.

For example -

From the Boston College website:

Admission to Boston College has become increasingly competitive as more students with superior academic records, intellectual curiosity, and scholarly promise continue to apply. For the class of 2011, there were over 28,000 applications for 2,250 places in the four undergraduate divisions.

Edited:
So BC accepts about 29% of the applicants, but only has seats for about 8%.

Now I know why I had such a tough time with statistics way back when.

08-08-2007, 07:57 PM
FSM: Not trying to be picky, but these numbers just do not look right.

For example -

From the Boston College website:

Admission to Boston College has become increasingly competitive as more students with superior academic records, intellectual curiosity, and scholarly promise continue to apply. For the class of 2011, there were over 28,000 applications for 2,250 places in the four undergraduate divisions.

I'm no MathMan, or certainly not Stats, but this works out to under 8.04%.

Those are pretty heady numbers for a glorified High School.

FSM
08-08-2007, 08:20 PM
FSM: Not trying to be picky, but these numbers just do not look right.

For example -

From the Boston College website:

Admission to Boston College has become increasingly competitive as more students with superior academic records, intellectual curiosity, and scholarly promise continue to apply. For the class of 2011, there were over 28,000 applications for 2,250 places in the four undergraduate divisions.

I'm no MathMan, or certainly not Stats, but this works out to under 8.04%.


I only post what the newspaper printed, but I found some other sources beside the Worcester Telegram:

From the Boston Globe, April 12, 2007

http://www.boston.com/news/education/hi ... are_elite/ (http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/04/12/suddenly_many_colleges_are_elite/)

BC accepted only 27 percent of its 28,800 applicants this year, compared with 39 percent a decade ago, when roughly 12,000 fewer students applied.

From CollegeBoard.com (which is a pretty good site to use to compare colleges)

http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/Col ... %20College (http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?match=true&collegeId=712&type=qfs&word=Boston%20College)

Percent applicants admitted: 29%

Your numbers would put BC lower than Harvard and I'm pretty sure Harvard has the lowest acceptance percentage in the country.

two-three-five
08-08-2007, 10:06 PM
FSM -

Thanks for the correction.

I was stuck on the ratio of actual attendees to applicants, an entirely different statistic.

MASC
08-09-2007, 09:27 AM
Those are pretty heady numbers for a glorified High School.
Another troll heard from. :x
No one applied to Holy Cross? :?
There are too many other colleges missing, e.g. MIT, WPI, UMASS/any

Cujo
08-09-2007, 10:29 AM
Those are pretty heady numbers for a glorified High School.
Another troll heard from. :x
No one applied to Holy Cross? :?
There are too many other colleges missing, e.g. MIT, WPI, UMASS/any

Nope not a troll - those posts were from Cujo. Boston University CAS 1982. At BU we used books written by scholars. BC uses 11th grade level textbooks by Rand McNally. My weekly reading requirements equalled what my friends at BC read in a whole semester.

beentheredonethat
08-09-2007, 11:27 AM
Relative to Duke, they are both grammar schools

Cujo
08-09-2007, 11:36 AM
Relative to Duke, they are both grammar schools

BU student body is weaker than Duke but our profs kick butt. World class......... At Harvard you pay $35K per year to be taught by mumbling, inarticulate, half-baked TA's and Adjuncts.

08-09-2007, 11:53 AM
Relative to Duke, they are both grammar schools

BU student body is weaker than Duke but our profs kick butt. World class......... At Harvard you pay $35K per year to be taught by mumbling, inarticulate, half-baked TA's and Adjuncts.

Can certainly see that they taught you how to write. Those BU profs like to use words like butt and half-baked. Won't get that at from a Harvard TA :)

MASC
08-09-2007, 12:10 PM
Enough of the Commonwealth Ave. rivalry!!!

Both are excellent colleges. The education provided at either is first rate.

Further bashing of any college is uncalled for, especially when none have done anything to provike the attacks.

Cujo
08-09-2007, 12:22 PM
Enough of the Commonwealth Ave. rivalry!!!

Both are excellent colleges. The education provided at either is first rate.

Further bashing of any college is uncalled for, especially when none have done anything to provike the attacks.

Sorry MASC but it is part of my genetic code just as bashing the Yankees is. BU ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

08-09-2007, 12:25 PM
Enough of the Commonwealth Ave. rivalry!!!

Both are excellent colleges. The education provided at either is first rate.

Further bashing of any college is uncalled for, especially when none have done anything to provike the attacks.

calm down. Cujo has a sense of humor.

Cujo
08-09-2007, 01:43 PM
Enough of the Commonwealth Ave. rivalry!!!

Both are excellent colleges. The education provided at either is first rate.

Further bashing of any college is uncalled for, especially when none have done anything to provike the attacks.

calm down. Cujo has a sense of humor.

I had a friend that went to BC and went to the wrong classroom sophomore year but did not notice it for about half an hour. Funny thing was that she was actually in the school's day care center.

tooslowtball
08-09-2007, 02:12 PM
Cujo

Next year

Harvard $45620.00
BU $46368.00

I wonder what you get for the additional $1,100.00 at BU

If parents make less than 60K the cost is $0.00 at Harvard

Seems still like a lot of $$$. When i went it was $9,000 and could pay.

Scary.

Cujo
08-09-2007, 02:24 PM
Cujo

Next year

Harvard $45620.00
BU $46368.00

I wonder what you get for the additional $1,100.00 at BU

If parents make less than 60K the cost is $0.00 at Harvard

Seems still like a lot of $$$. When i went it was $9,000 and could pay.

Scary.

You get taught by full profs. My freshman year I was taught by Prof. Goldman who was an advisor to Nixon on his China trip. Prof. Ohja who was an aide to Pres. Bhutto of Pakistan, Howard Zinn and Murray Levin also taught me. You don't get that at Harvard.

tooslowtball
08-09-2007, 02:44 PM
That was not my experience, the professors were always available.

TA did a lot of the grunt work, but i never thought they were the teachers. And the class sizes were extremely small after the freshman year and/or the intro courses. As undergrad you could do a lot of work for the prof in work study which was very great.

At my reunion it still seems about the same from what I gathered from the sudents (who were bartenders like I was).

Harvard Square is a lot different from 1982. I miss the grit and the oxford ale house, Ts pub over at BU is the same though.

MASoccer
08-09-2007, 03:09 PM
If parents make less than 60K the cost is $0.00 at Harvard.

Wow! Is this true? If so I'm assuming it's just tuition. Does it take into account any college savings, etc.? One of my brothers went to Harvard years ago. Although my parents did OK, not sure this was available at that time.

tooslowtball
08-09-2007, 03:21 PM
You can check it out the website. It is for tuition and room and board. The talk at the reunion was that it was going to be moved up to 100K soon.

Good endowment, they really don't have to charge tuition for undergrades, but boy to they hammer the alumni. They are really making a push to have as many top acheiving, horatio Alger type kids. This kids by the way, when they are older, always seem to donate the most.

08-09-2007, 03:29 PM
Cujo

Next year

Harvard $45620.00
BU $46368.00

I wonder what you get for the additional $1,100.00 at BU

If parents make less than 60K the cost is $0.00 at Harvard

Seems still like a lot of $$$. When i went it was $9,000 and could pay.

Scary.

You get taught by full profs. My freshman year I was taught by Prof. Goldman who was an advisor to Nixon on his China trip. Prof. Ohja who was an aide to Pres. Bhutto of Pakistan, Howard Zinn and Murray Levin also taught me. You don't get that at Harvard.

O.K., Cujo ... now you're going too far. I'm the same age and from Long Island. BU was the NY State College for those kids with $$$. Getting into Harvard was nearly impossible. BU was almost opened admissions. By the way, Professor Goldman is a professor at Wellesley and has been since 1958. His wife teaches at BU. Perhaps he came in as a guest for your class.

MASC
08-09-2007, 04:05 PM
Harvard is just protecting itself since several years ago Princeton went to a grant system. No scholarships, no loans. They meet 100% of need based on their calculations. Alumni can go online and find out what the parents would have to contribute. It is very generous!

The idea is to recoup the funds through grateful alumni donations. In any case their endowment is quite healthy.

Havard in order to keep attracting top students needed to follow Princeton's example.

CUJO: BC is NOT HS revisited. We always thought that about BU. :)

FXWLD 24/7
08-09-2007, 04:23 PM
Warning:
Be careful not to "attack" each other (especially in fun) or Soccer Fan will come in and shut you down. ;)

(Sorry Soccer Fan, I'm a little sensitive, my first thread ever gets "locked down." :oops: )

JustForFun
08-09-2007, 05:38 PM
FXWLD 24/7 wrote:

Be careful not to "attack" each other (especially in fun) or Soccer Fan will come in and shut you down.

You are not being sensitive. Read the thread - there is nothing significant there. SoccerFan grossly overreacted and I am questioning if I even want to continue to post. The whole point of a public forum is for "all to post" because everyone's ideas count, just like "all get a chance to vote" because everyone's opinion counts. Collectively we are infinitely more powerful than if we act separately. And then an individual singularly decides what is acceptable or not. Very odd. What is the point of an open discussion with input from a lot of different people (with which I do not normally associate) that is arbitrarily interrupted and censored by a masked man? That is not an open forum. Very odd indeed.

keeper
08-09-2007, 07:08 PM
FXWLD 24/7 wrote:

Be careful not to "attack" each other (especially in fun) or Soccer Fan will come in and shut you down.

You are not being sensitive. Read the thread - there is nothing significant there. SoccerFan grossly overreacted and I am questioning if I even want to continue to post. The whole point of a public forum is for "all to post" because everyone's ideas count, just like "all get a chance to vote" because everyone's opinion counts. Collectively we are infinitely more powerful than if we act separately. And then an individual singularly decides what is acceptable or not. Very odd. What is the point of an open discussion with input from a lot of different people (with which I do not normally associate) that is arbitrarily interrupted and censored by a masked man? That is not an open forum. Very odd indeed.

I read the last post, which was from MAsoccer, before it was deleted and the topic locked. While I didn't see anything wrong with it, perhaps the idea of connecting current and former screen names was making some one nervous.

08-09-2007, 07:27 PM
Somewhere through this thread was a question about Pre-Season and what to expect. Maybe I missed it with all the College bashing? If so, I can add that the Preseson College tryout for my kid was nothing he/she had ever experenced in term of tryout including HS, Club and SuperY. Intensive running, intensive drills not so much position playing. Three rounds of cuts and by the ens day so exhausted almost incapable of even being able to walk at the end. But they made it and they are back for second year just happy they aren't Freshmen or Fresh Woman....

Maybe other s have something to add to the original topic request?

08-09-2007, 07:47 PM
Somewhere through this thread was a question about Pre-Season and what to expect. Maybe I missed it with all the College bashing? If so, I can add that the Preseson College tryout for my kid was nothing he/she had ever experenced in term of tryout including HS, Club and SuperY. Intensive running, intensive drills not so much position playing. Three rounds of cuts and by the ens day so exhausted almost incapable of even being able to walk at the end. But they made it and they are back for second year just happy they aren't Freshmen or Fresh Woman....

Maybe other s have something to add to the original topic request?

I would agree with your statement - my daughter was in great shape when she showed up for college pre-season but nothing could have prepared her for the grueling workouts in the August heat. She could run for 90 minutes in a game no sweat during summer districts but that was not even close what she went through. During some of their long morning runs in the heat she would puke several times. Whatever workout regimen your daughter has scheduled I would say double it and start as soon as the graduation parties are over in early June. After a week of double sessions she called and wanted to come home. We did not pick her up even though she begged us. She was simply exhausted. Things got a little easier after that. The coach had achieved his goal 24 kids had showed up for camp and six quit in the first week and he was happy with what he had left. She had a great experience. Played alot in some games, a little in others, and none in some. She is glad she did it and it made her transition from HS to college life really easy. She knew her way around the school long before the other Freshmen showed up. An injury that would have impacted her chosen career forced her to "retire". Her team won the GNAC and they went to the NCAA tourney. The bottom line is that she chose her school for her major first and soccer second. Anything else would have been a mistake. Two points: all college careers end, and give them a sympathetic shoulder when they have had a tough day but DO NOT pick them up and bring them home unless the coach recommends it. They are watching things more closely than the player realizes.

08-09-2007, 07:52 PM
That was not my experience, the professors were always available.

TA did a lot of the grunt work, but i never thought they were the teachers. And the class sizes were extremely small after the freshman year and/or the intro courses. As undergrad you could do a lot of work for the prof in work study which was very great.

At my reunion it still seems about the same from what I gathered from the sudents (who were bartenders like I was).

Harvard Square is a lot different from 1982. I miss the grit and the oxford ale house, Ts pub over at BU is the same though.

I had lots of friends at Harvard - we went to Swifts alot in fact I saw John Lee Hooker there several times. One of my favorite Harvard memories is of this Freshman named Texeira puking from the fourth floor ledge of his dorm onto Harvard Sq.

08-09-2007, 07:55 PM
Cujo

Next year

Harvard $45620.00
BU $46368.00

I wonder what you get for the additional $1,100.00 at BU

If parents make less than 60K the cost is $0.00 at Harvard

Seems still like a lot of $$$. When i went it was $9,000 and could pay.

Scary.


You get taught by full profs. My freshman year I was taught by Prof. Goldman who was an advisor to Nixon on his China trip. Prof. Ohja who was an aide to Pres. Bhutto of Pakistan, Howard Zinn and Murray Levin also taught me. You don't get that at Harvard.

O.K., Cujo ... now you're going too far. I'm the same age and from Long Island. BU was the NY State College for those kids with $$$. Getting into Harvard was nearly impossible. BU was almost opened admissions. By the way, Professor Goldman is a professor at Wellesley and has been since 1958. His wife teaches at BU. Perhaps he came in as a guest for your class.

Merle Goldman served as an advisor too on the trip- she is one of the country's foremost experts on Chinese History. Not sure if that is her husband. My point is that you get her and not a TA. 7 kids in my sophmore class.

08-09-2007, 08:49 PM
Apparently this topic wants to be derailed. I second everything Guest said about his daughter. My child chose school first and soccer second. They both worked for him. You do get to get in preaseason early so you are all moved in and go home the day everyone else moves in. Agree many times she wanted to come home. Primarily pure exhaustion but we resisted.

The best thing she says is now she knows what to expect.

Anyone else want to add in to the original topic. Would be great to get some coach advise as well.

08-09-2007, 10:55 PM
This is GG, can't seem to log-on from home...guess I should've gone to BU...:)

First perspective is as a former college player - you just never know how different is going to be until you get there as a freshmen. I was really unprepared for how hard pre-season was, but only that first year. After that pre-season became my favorite part of the soccer season...and I knew how to prepare and what to expect.

Now, as a coach - I send our incoming players and returning players a full list of what we will do during pre-season in May, so that they can train for those demands. I also send them info on soccer-specific injury prevention and conditioning programs that they can do that will help them prepare. Our pre-season is tough, but nothing is done without a purpose; we do our best to avoid injury, but if a kid comes in out of shape sometimes that is unavoidable.

Best advice I can give to any freshmen (from both perspectives) is work hard, be humble, and don't be afraid to admit when you are hurt. Realize that your work ethic and attitude will be noticed by our coaches and teammates quicker than your fitness level will be. If you have not done what is needed up until now to be ready for pre-season, don't try to cram it in in the next few days...just be prepared to suck it up when needed.

And good luck to all!

GG

keeper
08-10-2007, 11:04 AM
While the obvious focus in this forum is soccer, and I understand it is the goal for many parents to see their kids continue as if they were U16s again. College soccer requires the same sacrifice of time that it took while growing up. Playing youth soccer at a high level took dedication and a lot of time. It was a tradeoff, but if you love to play, it was a positive and beneficial trade. That doesn’t mean however, that those kids didn’t miss out on some other worthwhile activities. Playing soccer in college is no different, except some of those activities you miss out on, can be pretty important and time becomes an even more precious commodity.

Preseason can collide with freshman orientation activities and limit options to explore other aspects of college life. Soccer will control much of your time both on and off the field, but no matter how tired and sore you get, try to find some time for doing some of those non-soccer activities.




.

Blue Devil
08-10-2007, 11:49 AM
Keeper, great advice - and it is nice that you see it while you are in the moment.

One of the best things about college is athletics; and one of the best things about college athletics are your teammates; who often become your friends for life. It was great for me to be a part of a close-knit group before the other freshman even hit the campus. I had a pre-made community to ease the transition from high school to college. And let's face it the demands of college athletics puts you in closer contact with a group of people in times of joy and stress than any other group activity shy of war or disaster (personal or natural)

But in retrospect I cheated myself of other experiences by being too sports centric during my college life. The college team for all of its positives can also exert an inertia that can surreptitiously limit your experiences with others outside the group. (I think this might be more true for male college athletes - females seem to do a better job of mixing it up)

No one can have it all, but in my case I could have reached out further from my athletic/academic core and gained a lot; but didn't consciously make that effort and only saw what I passed up in retrospect.

beentheredonethat
08-10-2007, 12:04 PM
Preseason can collide with freshman orientation activities and limit options to explore other aspects of college life. Soccer will control much of your time both on and off the field, but no matter how tired and sore you get, try to find some time for doing some of those non-soccer activities.


Well said Keeper! One thing that everyone must absolutely understand is that when you are a college athlete you do not have the same college experience as a normal student. As an athlete your kid may miss out on many of the big social events and their lifestyle will be decidedly different from that of an average student. To combat this reality I hear many parents talk about targeting D3 schools because they perceive that the demands will somehow be less. This is not necessarily an accurate perception. Based upon what I have seen, if the program is at all competitive there are expectations that must be met. I doubt many D3 coaches would accept less than a full effort just because they are D3.

08-10-2007, 12:12 PM
any college signings to report?

MASC
08-10-2007, 12:18 PM
I whole heartedly agree with Blue Devil and Keeper.

I have two nieces who played soccer in college freshman and sophomore years and decided that a semester abroad and other activities were more pressing.

My son has decided that he needs to spend more time studying and does not want to sacrifice other activities that are more pertinent to his future career goals. He will not play his junior and senior years. (All of his scholarship money is tied to academic achievement.)

The more things change the more they stay the same. It was the same for my father in the 30's (He warned us that playing a sport in college meant sacrificing other activities.), myself in the early 70's and even more so today.

Sometimes I wonder if the best players aren't in the library and not on the pitch.

08-10-2007, 01:02 PM
Sometimes I wonder if the best players aren't in the library and not on the pitch.

so this topic is really about crummy students and mediocre players?

08-10-2007, 01:39 PM
Nice --- really nice guest. Glad you are trying to add something positive to the fourm.

08-10-2007, 02:32 PM
I found these quotes on the Williams college website and thought it was a good balance between the academics and athletics:

Perhaps it's the image of Josef Powell, '02, from St. Catherine, Jamaica, missing the first half of two games during the 1999 season because he had a Spanish class that ran until 3:50. Shortly before halftime, the 2000 First Team All-American midfielder came rocketing down the hill past Cole Field House on his bike, just in time to warm-up and start the second half. Josef got an A- and Williams won both games, thus keeping both the professors and the coaches happy.

I also see as defining this program Will Ouimet, '01, Hatfield, MA, a <not allowed, LOL> laude graduate who had highest honors in geosciences. Will started for three years as a defender and also missed several games in his career so as not to cut geology labs. Last spring Will was named the Williams' 2001 male scholar-athlete of the year. Will was also a prominent member of the dance program (this is a back we're talking about, a hard-nosed banger!) and chose Williams over Harvard and Dartmouth because he could dance, play soccer at the upper-level of Division III, and study geology and math in a top academic environment. Soccer and dance, science and math, top grades, a combination you might not run into every day - or ever - except here in the Purple Valley.

http://www.williams.edu/athletics/news.php?id=7564&sport=18&year=2004&type=general

riles
08-10-2007, 03:07 PM
Sometimes I wonder if the best players aren't in the library and not on the pitch.

so this topic is really about crummy students and mediocre players?

Your comprehension of this topic may very well qualify you as one of the "crummy" students. Great reply. Obviously, heart felt and well thought out. Nice post. Please continue your postings as the offer so much to the forum.

08-10-2007, 03:14 PM
My daughter and I just had a meeting this week with a top program in the Northeast 10. I was shocked about the 12 month committtment they require. My daughter loves the sports and is willing to do it but I wonder with a lot of freshman don't play that much that it is a lot of work for maybe a few minutes of playing time. So you do need to love the game to play at this next level. On the other hand I see it as almost being in the Milatary and the discipline and worth ethic and time management they learn will be long lasting.

08-10-2007, 04:31 PM
Sometimes I wonder if the best players aren't in the library and not on the pitch.

so this topic is really about crummy students and mediocre players?

Your comprehension of this topic may very well qualify you as one of the "crummy" students. Great reply. Obviously, heart felt and well thought out. Nice post. Please continue your postings as the offer so much to the forum.

How does one even respond to a post like that? Good work. You gave it your best shot. I had nuthin'.................

08-10-2007, 04:35 PM
My daughter and I just had a meeting this week with a top program in the Northeast 10. I was shocked about the 12 month committtment they require. My daughter loves the sports and is willing to do it but I wonder with a lot of freshman don't play that much that it is a lot of work for maybe a few minutes of playing time. So you do need to love the game to play at this next level. On the other hand I see it as almost being in the Milatary and the discipline and worth ethic and time management they learn will be long lasting.

My daughter failed her first course last fall - it turns out that her prof. HATES athletes and really cracked her aggies. She did alright over all during soccer season and finished with a 2.9 even with the "flag". Now that she is retired she has made Deans list 3x and is up to a 3.3. Sports does take a toll on your grades from what I have seen. Some profs are very accomodating but others are not. It is important for the student to make sure her profs are fully aware of her game schedule well in advance and to make sure that she uses the AD's staff to run interference when conflicts arise with profs. I can almost guarantee they will.

Cujo
08-10-2007, 04:55 PM
My daughter and I just had a meeting this week with a top program in the Northeast 10. I was shocked about the 12 month committtment they require. My daughter loves the sports and is willing to do it but I wonder with a lot of freshman don't play that much that it is a lot of work for maybe a few minutes of playing time. So you do need to love the game to play at this next level. On the other hand I see it as almost being in the Milatary and the discipline and worth ethic and time management they learn will be long lasting.

My daughter failed her first course last fall - it turns out that her prof. HATES athletes and really cracked her aggies. She did alright over all during soccer season and finished with a 2.9 even with the "flag". Now that she is retired she has made Deans list 3x and is up to a 3.3. Sports does take a toll on your grades from what I have seen. Some profs are very accomodating but others are not. It is important for the student to make sure her profs are fully aware of her game schedule well in advance and to make sure that she uses the AD's staff to run interference when conflicts arise with profs. I can almost guarantee they will.

Cujo^

08-10-2007, 05:10 PM
Your comprehension of this topic may very well qualify you as one of the "crummy" students. Great reply. Obviously, heart felt and well thought out. Nice post. Please continue your postings as the offer so much to the forum.
maybe you ought to try re-reading the post and the response. the implication was the better players had stopped playing and were in the library. that leaves the lesser players, those not in the libary studying and presumably excelling academically, still on the pitch. not heart felt but some thought went in to it.

Blue Devil
08-10-2007, 05:28 PM
I think that academic experience will vary by school and player. Athletics obviously takes up a lot of time. But... In my case my grades were usually better in season because I knew that I needed to be disciplined. During the off season I had more time, but usually ended up doing less work because the pressure to produce in a smaller time slot was removed and I let more things slide. Obviously my experience was particular to me and doesn't correlate for any current player.

Same with professors, some accomodated the athletic travel more - some less. Cujo's daughter's experience was particular to her and that doesn't correlate to current players either. I don't think you can make a blanket statement with the exception of "athletics take a lot of time". Some professors and atheletes will mix the two better some will do it worse

If think you want to play college athletics - and are offered the chance to do so - go for it! It will only happen once in your life.

But realize the atmosphere is different and the players will all be like you - better than most all HS players - and driven to succeed. Realize that the coach will treat you like the adult you will become - not the kid that you that you were in HS and maybe still are as you start college. Realize that each incoming class after you start is just as hungry to take your job as you are/were as a freshman - and that despite any early success you enjoy - you will always need to prove yourself every year and maybe every game. Realize that 40% - 65% of the incomimg class that you started pre-season with as a freshman are likely to fall by the wayside during the 4-5 years that you play.

If you are still playing at the end of your college years it will likely be one of the most rewarding things you will do in your life. If you decide to stop playing due to injuries, outside interests, grades etc. you will know that you did something few players are capable of doing, gave it a shot and it wasn't right for you.

beentheredonethat
08-10-2007, 08:04 PM
Blue Devil .. While I will agree that experiences will differ between schools and programs, I think you will find that acrimony directed towards athletes is fairly prevalent in the academically elite institutions. I went to Duke on a football scholarship and had one prof refuse to allow me in her class and another give me a D+ strictly because I was an athlete. Both expressed to me in no uncertain terms that they felt athletes were a waste of university resources and were not to be tolerated.

Anonymous .. When you move to the college level you must realize that anywhere you go that has a full time coach you will encounter full time expectations. Keep in mind that in such an environment a coaches livelihood is usually based upon team results and most institutions will expect some level of success. On the academic side, they refer to the pressure to succeed as "publish or perish", on the athletic side it is expressed as "produce or perish". Against such a back drop, you can certainly see why the demands placed upon the athletes might be something akin to a full time job. I think you will find that if your child wishes to play at a competitive program the experience you describe will be more the rule than the exception.

Cujo
08-10-2007, 09:13 PM
Blue Devil .. While I will agree that experiences will differ between schools and programs, I think you will find that acrimony directed towards athletes is fairly prevalent in the academically elite institutions. I went to Duke on a football scholarship and had one prof refuse to allow me in her class and another give me a D+ strictly because I was an athlete. Both expressed to me in no uncertain terms that they felt athletes were a waste of university resources and were not to be tolerated.

Anonymous .. When you move to the college level you must realize that anywhere you go that has a full time coach you will encounter full time expectations. Keep in mind that in such an environment a coaches livelihood is usually based upon team results and most institutions will expect some level of success. On the academic side, they refer to the pressure to succeed as "publish or perish", on the athletic side it is expressed as "produce or perish". Against such a back drop, you can certainly see why the demands placed upon the athletes might be something akin to a full time job. I think you will find that if your child wishes to play at a competitive program the experience you describe will be more the rule than the exception.

While my daughter will never forget or regret her experience it is not why she went to college. Playing soccer was always secondary to her chosen major and even though she did not play this year due to injury - the new coach made it clear that he did not want players that had her major and similarly profs from her major made it clear they did not intend to accomodate athletes. This is obviously unique to her school and major but I am sure other players have run into the same situation.

keeper
08-10-2007, 09:59 PM
One of the best parts of the recruiting process were the official visits. There was always plenty of time to talk with the coach and the other players. I found coaches to be very honest and upfront about academic issues. Some majors and some programs just won’t mix well.

Coaches know which departments and which courses cause problems for their players. Most coaches I met were very clear about their priorities, and class work was not always on the top of their list. Check with the other players to see which majors may not be compatible with playing on the team. Meet with your department head and whichever Dean will serve as your academic advisor.

Soccer can define your entire college experience or it can be an entertaining extracurricular activity. Finding the right balance between soccer and school often requires compromising.

Being recruited is a seductive process, and after spending almost your entire life trying to reach the most competitive level you can, developing the proper perspective may take a little extra work




.

Blue Devil
08-11-2007, 11:07 AM
Blue Devil .. While I will agree that experiences will differ between schools and programs, I think you will find that acrimony directed towards athletes is fairly prevalent in the academically elite institutions. I went to Duke on a football scholarship and had one prof refuse to allow me in her class and another give me a D+ strictly because I was an athlete. Both expressed to me in no uncertain terms that they felt athletes were a waste of university resources and were not to be tolerated.

Cool you played at Duke. Do you think that all schools like Duke would have this same acrimony towards athletics? For instance at Notre Dame or Stanford would you expect football players to have the same experience? Also do Duke basketball players face the same hostility?

beentheredonethat
08-11-2007, 01:34 PM
The basketball players at Duke are the darlings of the campus so I would suspect that their experience was much different than mine. I think if you read Cujo's response you'll realize that the friction between academics and athletics is more prevalent than many think. In my experience, for every neanderthal jock there is a snobbish academic. The problem is that they don't time the profs in a 40 and make them teach also.

Cujo
08-11-2007, 04:11 PM
The basketball players at Duke are the darlings of the campus so I would suspect that their experience was much different than mine. I think if you read Cujo's response you'll realize that the friction between academics and athletics is more prevalent than many think. In my experience, for every neanderthal jock there is a snobbish academic. The problem is that they don't time the profs in a 40 and make them teach also.

I think their are many many permutations of experience for the college athlete. My daughter found that her next 3 profs were very accomodating. Her coach made sure that he worked around their school schedules. He quit and the new coach had no intention of accomodating them. That is another thing to keep in mind. There is lots of turnover in coaching at the D2 and 3 level.

mathman
08-11-2007, 04:57 PM
(snip)

The problem is that they don't time the profs in a 40 and make them teach also.

I don't understand what you are getting at in this comment. Could you amplify what you mean by this?

I think their are many many permutations of experience for the college athlete. My daughter found that her next 3 profs were very accomodating. Her coach made sure that he worked around their school schedules. He quit and the new coach had no intention of accomodating them. (snip)

Then someone should complain to the AD, or to one of the deans about this, since it's unacceptable for a coach of a *college* team to not make accomodations for a student's *college* schedule, just like I think it's unacceptable for professors to be unwilling to make *reasonable* accomodations for student-athletes (like makeup tests, extended deadlines for papers and lab reports, and excused absences if the student has to travel for games). If a professor would not make such accommodations, I would complain to the Dean of the Faculty, or perhaps the President, about that. If a college has decided to have an athletic team, then there should be an understanding that such reasonable accomodations are appropriate when a student at the college has decided to take advantage of that part of the college experience.

Cujo
08-11-2007, 07:37 PM
(snip)

The problem is that they don't time the profs in a 40 and make them teach also.

I don't understand what you are getting at in this comment. Could you amplify what you mean by this?

I think their are many many permutations of experience for the college athlete. My daughter found that her next 3 profs were very accomodating. Her coach made sure that he worked around their school schedules. He quit and the new coach had no intention of accomodating them. (snip)

Then someone should complain to the AD, or to one of the deans about this, since it's unacceptable for a coach of a *college* team to not make accomodations for a student's *college* schedule, just like I think it's unacceptable for professors to be unwilling to make *reasonable* accomodations for student-athletes (like makeup tests, extended deadlines for papers and lab reports, and excused absences if the student has to travel for games). If a professor would not make such accommodations, I would complain to the Dean of the Faculty, or perhaps the President, about that. If a college has decided to have an athletic team, then there should be an understanding that such reasonable accomodations are appropriate when a student at the college has decided to take advantage of that part of the college experience.

schools hate parachute parents - I wanted my daughter to learn to advocate for herself. It took a while but she figured it out. It was really hard for my wife and I to let go but it is necessary.

FSM
08-12-2007, 10:21 AM
(snip)

The problem is that they don't time the profs in a 40 and make them teach also.

I don't understand what you are getting at in this comment. Could you amplify what you mean by this?


I would guess he means that student atletes are expected to perform athletically AND academically while professors only have to worry about the academic side of things.

beentheredonethat
08-12-2007, 10:50 AM
Then someone should complain to the AD, or to one of the deans about this, since it's unacceptable for a coach of a *college* team to not make accomodations for a student's *college* schedule, just like I think it's unacceptable for professors to be unwilling to make *reasonable* accomodations for student-athletes (like makeup tests, extended deadlines for papers and lab reports, and excused absences if the student has to travel for games). If a professor would not make such accommodations, I would complain to the Dean of the Faculty, or perhaps the President, about that. If a college has decided to have an athletic team, then there should be an understanding that such reasonable accomodations are appropriate when a student at the college has decided to take advantage of that part of the college experience.

Mathman .. You have got to be kidding me. I would be very surprised if complaints like you describe would get much sympathy. I think you will find that the amount of cooperation between the academic and athletic communities at most colleges tends to be an issue and usually the upper hand is held by admissions. Most of the Deans I dealt with had little power over a tenured prof and if that prof had a hard anti-athlete attitude there was little if anything that could be done accept avoid the class.

As far as my comment about profs and 40 times, what I found was that most anti-athlete profs didn't have the first clue about what it takes to be an athlete. They completely misunderstand the amount of time and sacrifice involved and tend to look at any academic difficulty as a sign of laziness. I've often thought that if you were to take one of those profs and run them through a typical athlete's day they would have a far different attitude. I doubt most of them could do what a true student athlete does.

mathman
08-12-2007, 07:31 PM
Then someone should complain to the AD, or to one of the deans about this...(snip)

Mathman .. You have got to be kidding me.
Why would I do that?
I would be very surprised if complaints like you describe would get much sympathy.
There are no guarantees in life, but I don’t think one should take things like what you described without responding. Any professor who tells you that you deserved a B (say), but because you are an athlete, you are going to get a D+, is guilty of, at the very least, unethical behavior, and there would be consequences to that in any college community (see below). I can’t imagine a dean telling you that this was OK. Courses have syllabi, and grading criteria therein. If you got screwed on that, the dean can change your grade at the schools I am familiar with. Really.

Not allowing students to take makeup exams or have excused absences because of travel games would probably fall under the umbrella of academic freedom, but almost every professor I know makes such allowances for athletes. You mentioned two of your professors who had problems with athletes. Since you probably had about 30 professors while you were in college, that’s at the 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 level. From my own experience, that’s about right. Or were there a lot more, and if so, how did you manage to graduate?

I think you will find that the amount of cooperation between the academic and athletic communities at most colleges tends to be an issue and usually the upper hand is held by admissions.

They should hold the upper hand. The job of admissions is to make sure that accepted students can handle the college academically, irrespective of what other talents they may bring to the academic community. After all, it is a college, and not just some sort of holding-pen until someone signs a pro contract (well, maybe not at all schools…). At most schools, coaches have chits to put a kid into the accept group who wouldn’t normally be accepted on academic qualifications, but that only goes so far. There is no reason to accept an athlete (or anyone else) who is unlikely to be able to handle the academics, except maybe to have them for one season. As far as the degree of cooperation between academic and athletic departments, my own experience (at four colleges) has been that coaches are real good about sending notices to professors about travel games, requests for excused absences, early dismissals, and the like. Almost every professor I know (and I know a lot) accommodates those requests. There are exceptions, of course, and I do know professors like you have described (though no one who would give a student a bad grade *solely* because they were an athlete), but only a handful. My son played soccer at a highly selective school as a math/physics major (neither department is generally a reservoir of undiscovered athletic talent), and he never had any of the problems you described, nor did any of his teammates.

Most of the Deans I dealt with had little power over a tenured prof and if that prof had a hard anti-athlete attitude there was little if anything that could be done accept avoid the class.


If that was what you were told, then they weren’t being honest with you. In principle, academic freedom allows a professor a huge amount of leeway in how they behave in the college environment. But in practice, administrative representatives have all sorts of ways of squeezing you and making your work life miserable. They can deny you promotions, freeze your salary for a decade or two, increase the number of students in your classes, cancel courses you want to teach and assign you to ones you hate, or they schedule you in nasty classrooms (none of that has happened to me, but it has happened to people I know). Usually, their best approach is to not deal with you, but deal with your department as a whole. They start raising the seats limit in everyone’s courses, denying requests for supplies and services, cut the department secretary back to part time, and so on. So the other members of your department suffer because of your behavior, and that puts a huge amount of pressure on you to change your ways. Is it absolute power? No: there are a lot of things they can’t make you do. But they can make it really difficult for you to not do them. Would they bring all of this to bear because you got a D+? That's unlikely, but the power is there.
As far as my comment about profs and 40 times, what I found was that most anti-athlete profs didn't have the first clue about what it takes to be an athlete. They completely misunderstand the amount of time and sacrifice involved and tend to look at any academic difficulty as a sign of laziness. I've often thought that if you were to take one of those profs and run them through a typical athlete's day they would have a far different attitude. I doubt most of them could do what a true student athlete does.

Why would you find that surprising? If they were “anti-athlete,â€￾ chances are excellent they weren’t student-athletes. And I suspect that most student-athletes have no idea what it takes to be a professor, or what their work life is really like. They, also, would probably wildly underestimate the amount of time involved in the job. If you only see someone for 50 or 75 minutes, two or three times a week, you’re probably not going to have any idea what the rest of their life is like. It cuts both ways.

The last sentence is hard to respond to. Most professors I know spend much more than 40 or 50 hours a week on their job, so as far as the time spent, I don't think they would find a student-athlete's day a stretch. Of course, the athletic part would be. Just like the difficulty a student would have in getting up in front of 20 or 30 students and talking for four hours about something they don't understand well, if at all. I would imagine they would find that about as embarassing as my trying to run a 40 (though three years ago, I managed a 5.9 ... my goal is to get it under my age in decades).

beentheredonethat
08-13-2007, 04:33 AM
Mathman .. Perhaps at your institution there is no such thing as a bias against athletes. Sounds like Nirvana. All I can say is that I didn't find such open thinking and cooperation at Duke. Unfortunately I was part of recruiting class that the adminstration had given to the football coach as one of those "academic concessions" you typically hear about at academically tough schools with under performing football programs. Even though I graduated in the top 10% of my HS class with a gpa well beyond 3.0 (and was accepted into every Ivy but one) I was considered one of those concessions and had to deal with the backlash from an academic community that did not support the administration's decision. In my case the acrimony actually started the first day of orientation when the Freshman Dean told me she resented my being there so I never really felt that anyone in the administration was open to hearing any complaints. All you have to do is remember back to last Spring and how the academic community actually held demonstrations against the Lacrosse players to realize that they are not the most open thinking group with a high esteem for athletes. Then also look at how the Duke football program has faired in the last 25 years. Being that bad is by choice, not accident. By the way, everyone of the 25 guys in my recruiting class graduated in under 5 years. In retrospect the concessions really weren't that deep.

Duke is a great school. I had a wonderful time there and really have few regrets about getting my degree from it. The message that I have to offer based upon my experience is to go into any recruiting situation with your eyes wide open. Don't let the excitement of the recruiting process lull you and your kid into a false sense of importance. Realize that when a coach is recruiting players they are selling and no matter how sincere they may appear, that their livelihood is based winning games. Most of all realize that the school must be a fit athletically, academically, and socially in order for your student athlete to have the best chance of happiness. Whatever you do, don't let your child lull themselves into conceding a weakness in one part of the equation for strength in another. Keep things in balance.

08-13-2007, 06:16 AM
don't you think things might have changed in 20 years or so?

Cujo
08-13-2007, 08:25 AM
Mathman .. Perhaps at your institution there is no such thing as a bias against athletes. Sounds like Nirvana. All I can say is that I didn't find such open thinking and cooperation at Duke. Unfortunately I was part of recruiting class that the adminstration had given to the football coach as one of those "academic concessions" you typically hear about at academically tough schools with under performing football programs. Even though I graduated in the top 10% of my HS class with a gpa well beyond 3.0 (and was accepted into every Ivy but one) I was considered one of those concessions and had to deal with the backlash from an academic community that did not support the administration's decision. In my case the acrimony actually started the first day of orientation when the Freshman Dean told me she resented my being there so I never really felt that anyone in the administration was open to hearing any complaints. All you have to do is remember back to last Spring and how the academic community actually held demonstrations against the Lacrosse players to realize that they are not the most open thinking group with a high esteem for athletes. Then also look at how the Duke football program has faired in the last 25 years. Being that bad is by choice, not accident. By the way, everyone of the 25 guys in my recruiting class graduated in under 5 years. In retrospect the concessions really weren't that deep.

Duke is a great school. I had a wonderful time there and really have few regrets about getting my degree from it. The message that I have to offer based upon my experience is to go into any recruiting situation with your eyes wide open. Don't let the excitement of the recruiting process lull you and your kid into a false sense of importance. Realize that when a coach is recruiting players they are selling and no matter how sincere they may appear, that their livelihood is based winning games. Most of all realize that the school must be a fit athletically, academically, and socially in order for your student athlete to have the best chance of happiness. Whatever you do, don't let your child lull themselves into conceding a weakness in one part of the equation for strength in another. Keep things in balance.

I think the rush to condemn the Duke lacrosse players before due process had run its course shows that the same level of contempt for athletes on the part of the faculty still exists there. When the players were cleared of the charges the silence on the part of the faculty was deafening. Maybe Duke represents the extreme end of the spectrum but it certainly is not unique. My brother in law has been a prof for many years (and throws a ball like a sissy.... {family joke}.....) and does not make any accomodation for athletes whatsoever. He won't say it but I suspect that is why he is not teaching at UNH any more - he was really hard on some of the hockey players. I must say it wasn't all of his own doing - the academic culture among many of the profs there is to sneer at the student-athletes and I think he got caught up in that mindset. That is fine if you have tenure but if you are an associate or adjunct it can backfire. In their mind every dollar that is spent on athletics takes away from the educational end of the budget. This is a very myopic view. The goal of a university is to develop leaders who actively help restore and maintain the business, industrial, and physical infrastructure of our country and not pointy headed intellectuals who only write and talk about it.

08-13-2007, 11:38 AM
Aren't athletics a GIANT source of revenue for many of the big schools? (Revenue=scholarship...athletic or academic) also (Revenue= professors salary). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

mathman
08-13-2007, 11:50 AM
The goal of a university is to develop leaders who actively help restore and maintain the business, industrial, and physical infrastructure of our country and not pointy headed intellectuals who only write and talk about it.

That's a pretty stunning comment. Were you were frightened by an intellectual as a child?

Don't worry about the point. We only use it for Good, not Evil.

Blue Devil
08-13-2007, 01:53 PM
Aren't athletics a GIANT source of revenue for many of the big schools? (Revenue=scholarship...athletic or academic) also (Revenue= professors salary). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Many collegiate athletic programs lose money and in some cases large amounts. The main key for the financial success of the athletic program is the financial success of football program with a secondary key being the basketball team.

One study I read several years ago showed that roughly 2/3 of the Division 1 football and basketball programs made money but in most cases not all that much. Many but not all of the BCS conference schools do fairly well financially in those two sports but in many cases they use the revenue to fund the rest of their sports programs and not all that much if any goes into the general fund of the college. Some football exceptions do generate enough to contribute general funds but not that many. (The biggest exception is Notre Dame which is very profitable by dint of its own network TV contract). Some of the basketball powers who minimize football expenditures (Georgetown and DePaul for example) may use some of the basketball excess for general funds but I do not believe that many of the basketball only revenue schools contribute much to the general fund.

The main justifications that I have seen used for large sports expenditures are: increasing revenue, increased alumni contributions, increasing the number and quality of student applicants to the university and building school spirit.

Overall I think that with the exception of maybe 30-40 schools athletics is a financial loss for colleges if you look at total sports expenditures vs. total sports revenue in a given year.

Cujo
08-13-2007, 02:22 PM
The goal of a university is to develop leaders who actively help restore and maintain the business, industrial, and physical infrastructure of our country and not pointy headed intellectuals who only write and talk about it.

That's a pretty stunning comment. Were you were frightened by an intellectual as a child?

Don't worry about the point. We only use it for Good, not Evil.

Don't get me wrong - intellectuals have their place in the world but would you rather fly on a plane designed by Dick Yeager or Noam Chomsky?

Cujo
08-13-2007, 02:23 PM
The goal of a university is to develop leaders who actively help restore and maintain the business, industrial, and physical infrastructure of our country and not pointy headed intellectuals who only write and talk about it.

That's a pretty stunning comment. Were you were frightened by an intellectual as a child?

Don't worry about the point. We only use it for Good, not Evil.

yeah, I looked in the mirror.

mathman
08-13-2007, 02:24 PM
Aren't athletics a GIANT source of revenue for many of the big schools? (Revenue=scholarship...athletic or academic) also (Revenue= professors salary). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Do you really think professors would be that dumb?

Even if Athletic Department budget surpluses went directly into professor's pockets (which I think is *extremely* unlikely), it's not usually that much, and I would imagine that at most schools the AD doesn't run a surplus. Even if a surplus did go into the general fund, instructional salaries only account for about 20% of the total budget at most schools.

At the University of Michigan in 2005, the Athletic Department had a budget surplus of $9.3 million. Faculty salaries were $230 million the same year. You do the math.

mathman
08-13-2007, 03:37 PM
The goal of a university is to develop leaders who actively help restore and maintain the business, industrial, and physical infrastructure of our country and not pointy headed intellectuals who only write and talk about it.

That's a pretty stunning comment. Were you were frightened by an intellectual as a child?

Don't worry about the point. We only use it for Good, not Evil.

Don't get me wrong - intellectuals have their place in the world but would you rather fly on a plane designed by Dick Yeager or Noam Chomsky?

Who's Dick Yeager? Is he the product of the unholy union between Chuck Yeager and Dick Rutan? Then the answer would be Dick Rutan, but I would want Chuck Yeager to be the pilot (if he were younger).

But I guess your point is that omphaloskeptics are to be tolerated, but what really matters is whether one invents something practical, something that can be sold and used? Then I guess you would venerate the inventor of the urinal deodorant cake above James Clerk Maxwell, who developed the theoretical foundation for telecommunications. To each his own, I suppose.

Cujo
08-13-2007, 08:41 PM
The goal of a university is to develop leaders who actively help restore and maintain the business, industrial, and physical infrastructure of our country and not pointy headed intellectuals who only write and talk about it.

That's a pretty stunning comment. Were you were frightened by an intellectual as a child?

Don't worry about the point. We only use it for Good, not Evil.

Don't get me wrong - intellectuals have their place in the world but would you rather fly on a plane designed by Dick Yeager or Noam Chomsky?



Who's Dick Yeager? Is he the product of the unholy union between Chuck Yeager and Dick Rutan? Then the answer would be Dick Rutan, but I would want Chuck Yeager to be the pilot (if he were younger).

But I guess your point is that omphaloskeptics are to be tolerated, but what really matters is whether one invents something practical, something that can be sold and used? Then I guess you would venerate the inventor of the urinal deodorant cake above James Clerk Maxwell, who developed the theoretical foundation for telecommunications. To each his own, I suppose.

Steve Yeager's brother............ sorry brain cramp but I think you get my point.

As for inventors I prefer Tesla. Compared to him Edison was a clumsy Neanderthal who proved that if you fail enough times you can eventually be successful, especially if you steal the efforts of your employees. What I liked best about Tesla is that he visualized his solutions while at rest and then implemented them the next day. Perhaps a better analogy is that I have more respect for Peckinpah and Scorcese than Siskel and Ebert.

Rutan.... didn't he found Pier One?

beentheredonethat
08-13-2007, 09:33 PM
Aren't athletics a GIANT source of revenue for many of the big schools? (Revenue=scholarship...athletic or academic) also (Revenue= professors salary). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

On an operating basis most programs actually do lose money. On the surface this makes the institutions seem as though they are some how noble for supporting athletics. But what typically doesn't get factored into that equation is the huge amounts of soft money from endorsers and the major funds raised for the endowment through the "booster clubs". This is the where real money is in college sports. Look at the effect Flutie had at BC. Many credit him with single handedly putting that school on the map and there certainly was a tremendous surge in capital spending following his success. Bet you BC didn't do it all with ticket sales.

mathman
08-13-2007, 10:47 PM
Aren't athletics a GIANT source of revenue for many of the big schools? (Revenue=scholarship...athletic or academic) also (Revenue= professors salary). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

On an operating basis most programs actually do lose money. On the surface this makes the institutions seem as though they are some how noble for supporting athletics. But what typically doesn't get factored into that equation is the huge amounts of soft money from endorsers and the major funds raised for the endowment through the "booster clubs". This is the where real money is in college sports. Look at the effect Flutie had at BC. Many credit him with single handedly putting that school on the map and there certainly was a tremendous surge in capital spending following his success. Bet you BC didn't do it all with ticket sales.

I think that's a really good point. I remember reading that 15 or 20 years ago, the president of Harvard was meeting with a group of big Harvard contributors, and told them he thought Harvard should put less emphasis on athletics. They basically told him about a very dark place where he could put that idea. He dropped it.

08-13-2007, 10:53 PM
Two reactions to this interesting thread:

1. I think professors and coaches are two sides of the same coin. Coaches want dedicated athletes who put sports first. They get frustrated when athletes go to class instead of practice or take classes that interfere with a sports first lifestyle. Understandably, coaches think it's unfair to other teammates if some players miss practice. Coaches enforce their expectations by reducing playing time, taking away scholarships, etc.

Professors are no different. They teach students who come to school to learn. If students choose to do something else like sports that interferes, why wouldn't they also get frustrated? For example, a professor may assign students to teams for a marketing exercise in a business program. If one of those students is absent for two days before the project is due, isn't that equally unfair to those who are "present" and ready to work? After all, those students and teachers are as serious about their projects as athletes are about their sports. To me, professors are no different than coaches if they establish expectations of their students and enforce them.

Each institution needs to decide how to strike a balance between these two things. Frankly, it makes sense that at least some back up their professors if there are limits to accommodations made to athletic schedules.

2. I think what Flutie did for BC was great. However, I think that giving him singlehanded credit overlooks the thousands of people who have made significant contributions to that university's success. Flutie had teammates who weren't exactly stiffs. And, in the 20+ years since his graduation, a lot of very talented people have worked at and studied at the school. Many of them have become wealthy and given back to the school. Flutie did not make these people talented and hard-working, nor did he give them the generous spirit to support higher education.

I say these things because I believe it's important not to overstate the importance of big time sports to university success. MIT doesn't have big time sports, and it's one of the world's greatest and wealthiest academic institutions. Also, I believe that Boston University did away with its football program not that many years ago. Some alumni were very unhappy about this, but that fine university has flourished.

beentheredonethat
08-13-2007, 11:05 PM
A stat to look at is the increase in applications after a sport team has a big year (final 4, BCS Bowl). If I remember correctly after Flutie won the Heisman the demand at BC soared which allowed the school to increase the size and quality of the student body

FSM
08-14-2007, 09:37 AM
2. I think what Flutie did for BC was great. However, I think that giving him singlehanded credit overlooks the thousands of people who have made significant contributions to that university's success. Flutie had teammates who weren't exactly stiffs. And, in the 20+ years since his graduation, a lot of very talented people have worked at and studied at the school. Many of them have become wealthy and given back to the school. Flutie did not make these people talented and hard-working, nor did he give them the generous spirit to support higher education.

I say these things because I believe it's important not to overstate the importance of big time sports to university success. MIT doesn't have big time sports, and it's one of the world's greatest and wealthiest academic institutions. Also, I believe that Boston University did away with its football program not that many years ago. Some alumni were very unhappy about this, but that fine university has flourished.

Here's something for you to consider. Statistically more women then men are entering and graduating from college (56% women with this number predicted to continue to increase, to 44% men) although there are still more men with doctorate degrees and higher-paying jobs. The number of top male athlete in the college money making sports (football, basketball) who actually finish with a degree is extraordinarily low (50% for 1A football, 44% for baksetball) while for female athletes the graduation rate is around 70% which puts them ahead of the general female college population that is around 60%. I would think this has to have an affect on the future of college athletic programs. Title IX is taking a hit when men's sports get dropped, but I'm thinking the changing demographics at colleges has something to do with it as well.

08-14-2007, 10:11 AM
2. I think what Flutie did for BC was great. However, I think that giving him singlehanded credit overlooks the thousands of people who have made significant contributions to that university's success. Flutie had teammates who weren't exactly stiffs. And, in the 20+ years since his graduation, a lot of very talented people have worked at and studied at the school. Many of them have become wealthy and given back to the school. Flutie did not make these people talented and hard-working, nor did he give them the generous spirit to support higher education.

I say these things because I believe it's important not to overstate the importance of big time sports to university success. MIT doesn't have big time sports, and it's one of the world's greatest and wealthiest academic institutions. Also, I believe that Boston University did away with its football program not that many years ago. Some alumni were very unhappy about this, but that fine university has flourished.

Here's something for you to consider. Statistically more women then men are entering and graduating from college (56% women with this number predicted to continue to increase, to 44% men) although there are still more men with doctorate degrees and higher-paying jobs. The number of top male athlete in the college money making sports (football, basketball) who actually finish with a degree is extraordinarily low (50% for 1A football, 44% for baksetball) while for female athletes the graduation rate is around 70% which puts them ahead of the general female college population that is around 60%. I would think this has to have an affect on the future of college athletic programs. Tiitle IX is taking a hit when men's sports get dropped, but I'm thinking the changing demographics at colleges has something to do with it as well.

When schools drop men's golf or baseball, it is Tiitle IX at fault.
btdt made a great post about alumni funds.
Do you think the colleges hit up their alum playing on the PGA tour?

To be PC they blame it on revenue.
If this was the case, the only college sports would be football and men's basketball, with a small group of hockey teams.

08-14-2007, 10:14 AM
You can't even spell ti tle here!!

I have daughters, but it is time to fix Ti tle ix

Cujo
08-14-2007, 11:12 AM
You can't even spell ti tle here!!

I have daughters, but it is time to fix Ti tle ix

But it will accept Booble IX. Mammarial IX. Breastle IX etc.

Blue Devil
08-14-2007, 11:16 AM
will also take title from anyone who posts as a registered member

Cujo
08-14-2007, 11:21 AM
Two reactions to this interesting thread:

1. I think professors and coaches are two sides of the same coin. Coaches want dedicated athletes who put sports first. They get frustrated when athletes go to class instead of practice or take classes that interfere with a sports first lifestyle. Understandably, coaches think it's unfair to other teammates if some players miss practice. Coaches enforce their expectations by reducing playing time, taking away scholarships, etc.

Professors are no different. They teach students who come to school to learn. If students choose to do something else like sports that interferes, why wouldn't they also get frustrated? For example, a professor may assign students to teams for a marketing exercise in a business program. If one of those students is absent for two days before the project is due, isn't that equally unfair to those who are "present" and ready to work? After all, those students and teachers are as serious about their projects as athletes are about their sports. To me, professors are no different than coaches if they establish expectations of their students and enforce them.

Each institution needs to decide how to strike a balance between these two things. Frankly, it makes sense that at least some back up their professors if there are limits to accommodations made to athletic schedules.

2. I think what Flutie did for BC was great. However, I think that giving him singlehanded credit overlooks the thousands of people who have made significant contributions to that university's success. Flutie had teammates who weren't exactly stiffs. And, in the 20+ years since his graduation, a lot of very talented people have worked at and studied at the school. Many of them have become wealthy and given back to the school. Flutie did not make these people talented and hard-working, nor did he give them the generous spirit to support higher education.

I say these things because I believe it's important not to overstate the importance of big time sports to university success. MIT doesn't have big time sports, and it's one of the world's greatest and wealthiest academic institutions. Also, I believe that Boston University did away with its football program not that many years ago. Some alumni were very unhappy about this, but that fine university has flourished.

If you are going to have college sports the student should not be placed in the position of being the whipping boy/girl caught in between athletics and academics. It is up to the University administration to make it clear to both sides that there is a benefit to have student-athletes as part of the university/college community and that both need to work to accomodate the others particular needs. My daughter found herself constantly in the uncomfortable position of p!ssing off her coaches and instructors on a rotating basis. As did many of her teammates. Basically because they could or would not articulate their differences in an adult manner by COMMUNICATING the student athletes got caught in the crossfire. Some instructors were great and worked closely with her to schedule make up work and test as long as she provided them with her schedule upfront. This was especially important for road games that forced them to leave on Thursdays in the morning. My wife stepped in and got involved with her first instructor and found out that neither the AD, the administration, or the prof really cared. The coach was frustrated too. "Fortunately" a career ending injury "solved" the problem. :?

MASC
08-14-2007, 11:55 AM
Just to clarify some misconceptions posted:

1) BC is approximately the same size now as it was in the Flutie era, approximately 8,000 undergraduate students. The difference is in the composition of the student body. Effectively no commuters, active discrimination against those living within 2 hours of Chestnut Hill.

2) Colleges are actively re-examining their admissions policies. Women are approximately 60 - 65% of the students. This has been the trend for almost 20 years. The colleges have been tracking alumni donations and found that women do not donate. The ratio is approximately 20:1, i.e. male alumni donate $20 for every $1 that women donate. Moving forwards most colleges are attempting to get to a balance that more reflects the popluation, i.e. 52% male, 48% female. If they could without getting into trouble they would favor males even more.

Talking with HS guidance personel they have seen a trend at the "selective" colleges to attract more male students, i.e. a man has a better chance than a woman to be accepted all things being close to equal.

mathman
08-14-2007, 01:22 PM
My wife stepped in and got involved with her first instructor and found out that neither the AD, the administration, or the prof really cared. The coach was frustrated too. "Fortunately" a career ending injury "solved" the problem. :?

One thing that might work better than contacting the AD, etc. is, if a student has an instructor they are close to, to ask that instructor if they would be willing to talk to the professor who's being a jerk about it, or to do that indirectly by going up to the professor after class to ask some question about the course, then drop the fact that you really appreciate how flexible they are, that it's too bad not all your professors are like them, and so on, naming names. The professor might then offer to talk to this person about the situation. If the flexible professor has tenure, and the other one doesn't, and they are in the same department, you're in.

This would, I think, work pretty well at small colleges, and less well at larger ones (which would include most D1 schools), and might not work at all freshman year, since the student wouldn't know any professors. But they could talk to their advisor about it, at least, especially if their advisor is in the same department as the difficult instructor. If it's a small school, the faculty tend to know each other, and are more willing to do a favor for someone they run into often on committes and so on than someone they don't. I've been asked to run interference like this a number of times, and with one exception, successfully (the one failure was expected).

Cujo
08-14-2007, 01:29 PM
My wife stepped in and got involved with her first instructor and found out that neither the AD, the administration, or the prof really cared. The coach was frustrated too. "Fortunately" a career ending injury "solved" the problem. :?

One thing that might work better than contacting the AD, etc. is, if a student has an instructor they are close to, to ask that instructor if they would be willing to talk to the professor who's being a jerk about it, or to do that indirectly by going up to the professor after class to ask some question about the course, then drop the fact that you really appreciate how flexible they are, that it's too bad not all your professors are like them, and so on, naming names. The professor might then offer to talk to this person about the situation. If the flexible professor has tenure, and the other one doesn't, and they are in the same department, you're in.

This would, I think, work pretty well at small colleges, and less well at larger ones (which would include most D1 schools), and might not work at all freshman year, since the student wouldn't know any professors. But they could talk to their advisor about it, at least, especially if their advisor is in the same department as the difficult instructor. If it's a small school, the faculty tend to know each other, and are more willing to do a favor for someone they run into often on committes and so on than someone they don't. I've been asked to run interference like this a number of times, and with one exception, successfully (the one failure was expected).

It was my daughters first course (she takes labs one at a time for two weeks so no other courses) and the "jerk" was actually her assigned academic advisor. It was an unfortunate situation and a learning experience. Just a bad roll of the dice.

FSM
08-14-2007, 05:08 PM
BC is approximately the same size now as it was in the Flutie era, approximately 8,000 undergraduate students. The difference is in the composition of the student body. Effectively no commuters, active discrimination against those living within 2 hours of Chestnut Hill.

Totally off topic, but you may find this interesting. Central Mass has a fantastic vocational school, the Blackstone Valley Vocational Technical High School. I mention this because I just recently saw that they had a graduate this year accepted to BC and she is not the first to have gotten into some of the better colleges from this school. This school is out performing some of the local public schools on MCAS results, which I believe may be out of the ordinary for many vocational schools and there is a waiting list of kids trying to get into this school.

beentheredonethat
08-14-2007, 05:32 PM
Not a surprise at all. I teach in a Voc school and I am totally amazed at the work some of my peers are doing in the classroom. I believe we had every student pass the math portion of the MCAS again this year

keeper
08-14-2007, 05:32 PM
You guys are arguing as if there is a single right answer; there are no absolutes when people are involved.

There many Colleges that bend over backwards to support their student athletes. I saw special study and computer labs staffed with tutors and academic counselors, Professor lead pre-exam review sessions and a willingness to work around travel schedules. I have a friend playing football for Georgia Tech, and the school is VERY accommodating to their athletes.

There are also Colleges that don’t provide the same level of support to their student athletes and view sports as just another extracurricular activity. They expect students to manage their time and workload as any other student. Any requests to change assignment dates or make up tests are considered and determined by each Professor on a case by case basis.

Do some colleges have professors that coddle, fawn over, and provide special favors to student athletes? Of course there are, just as some colleges have professors that harbor resentment and hostility towards student athletes. It’s kind of like having a political view that differs from the Professor’s.

College campuses can be bastions of political intolerance with steaming caldrons of political correctness gone amok, which often drives the politicization of curriculum. All of that hackneyed under the cloak of academic freedom. In such an environment, students learn the best way to good grades is simply to parrot back to the professors what they want to hear in regard to political viewpoints. Students also learn that it is useless to challenge the narrow view or obsessive behavior of such professors to administrators because a homogeny of ideologies binds the two tighter than a cheap corset

Then again, some schools just party a lot.





.

beentheredonethat
08-14-2007, 05:44 PM
Keeper .. All of us can agree that every situation is unique and experiences vary from college to college. The point was to try and educate that these kind of situations do occur and one might want to ask a few questions along these lines when you are evaluating a school.

I'd like to change the course of the thread a little. Forgetting about other factors for a minute, given the choice of two schools:

1 - With a strong program and quality players where your player might not play for a year or two (if ever)

or

2 - With a struggling program where you are fairly certain your player would play early

Which do people think is a better situation?

08-14-2007, 07:01 PM
Somewhere in between option 1 and option 2.

Blue Devil
08-14-2007, 07:14 PM
BTDT

Again here I think that the mileage will vary by kid and by school. My oldest child chooses to be on the best team possible even if that costs her playing time. My youngest wants to be on the best team where he can one of the stronger players; and if there are better teams where he will be a mediocre player or lower end of the range he chooses to drop down to his comfort zone.

Their attitudes have resulted in my daughter realizing more of her athletic potential but having a lot of emotional ups and downs based on playing time or lack thereof; and my son realizing less of his potential but enjoying every minute he is on the field.

As a father it is interesting to see one kid always try to strive to play above her level even though she knows some years she will end up frustrated due to lack of playing time and the other want the recognition that comes with being on the best team but usually opting for a lesser team where he knows he will be among the better players.

I also find that it carries through after games when my daughter wants to dissect every minute detail of every game and what she could have done better and my son wants me to recognize 2-3 good moments and move on. I honestly don't know which is the better path but think each of my children chose the better path for themselves because they are wired differently.

I chose path number one and for me it worked out pretty well mainly because injuries to players above me allowed me to play very early in my college career. If that didn't happen and I never got to play or I had to wait to year 4 to play I would have been very frustrated and felt I made the wrong decision.

So I guess that my answer would be - play at the best level that you can actually play at - but it is really tricky to determine that before you make the decision. And to make it even trickier; that is only the athletic part of the decision which should come after you pick the right school for academic and social reasons.

What do you think the best answer is?

keeper
08-14-2007, 07:16 PM
Keeper .. All of us can agree that every situation is unique and experiences vary from college to college. From the latest round of postings, that doesn't seem to be true.

The point was to try and educate that these kind of situations do occur and one might want to ask a few questions along these lines when you are evaluating a school.What point; whose point; which point?? After all, they say, “a point in every direction is the same as no point at allâ€￾. This thread jumps all over the place and I think my point was quite inline with the current progression of thought. Or, are you implying my point was somehow less relevant than any of the many others?

Anyhow, I made my point, and with 3 sessions per day this week, I’ll leave it at that…




.

08-14-2007, 07:20 PM
Keeper .. All of us can agree that every situation is unique and experiences vary from college to college. The point was to try and educate that these kind of situations do occur and one might want to ask a few questions along these lines when you are evaluating a school.

I'd like to change the course of the thread a little. Forgetting about other factors for a minute, given the choice of two schools:

1 - With a strong program and quality players where your player might not play for a year or two (if ever)

or

2 - With a struggling program where you are fairly certain your player would play early

Which do people think is a better situation?

I think there are actually two answers here. Is the player going to the school for the opportunity to attend that college and/or scholarship? Then maybe sitting the bench and reaping the educational rewards may be just fine. However, if the player has never sat the bench in their life and will have a tough time of it, they may not want to continue with that team and then it is a bad situation. I think every player is different considering what they want out of college soccer.

08-14-2007, 07:35 PM
Closer to home.

I'd like to change the course of the thread a little. Forgetting about college factors for a minute, given the choice of two clubs:

1 - With a strong program and quality players where your player might not play for a year or two (if ever)
or
2 - With a struggling program where you are fairly certain your player would get lots of play time.

Few would choose #1, why would they choose it for college. Unless money was factor.

Blue Devil
08-14-2007, 08:06 PM
Aren't athletics a GIANT source of revenue for many of the big schools? (Revenue=scholarship...athletic or academic) also (Revenue= professors salary). Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

On an operating basis most programs actually do lose money. On the surface this makes the institutions seem as though they are some how noble for supporting athletics. But what typically doesn't get factored into that equation is the huge amounts of soft money from endorsers and the major funds raised for the endowment through the "booster clubs". This is the where real money is in college sports. Look at the effect Flutie had at BC. Many credit him with single handedly putting that school on the map and there certainly was a tremendous surge in capital spending following his success. Bet you BC didn't do it all with ticket sales.

Was the Flutie affect real at all?

Writing in the Spring 2003 edition of Boston College Magazine, Bill McDonald, director of communications at Boston College’s Lynch School of Education determined that “Applications to BC did surge 16 percent in 1984 (from 12,414 to 14,398), and then another 12 percent (to 16,163) in 1985. But these jumps were not anomalous for BC, which in the previous decade had embarked on a program to build national enrollment using market research, a network of alumni volunteers, strategically allocated financial aid, and improvements to residence halls and academic facilities.â€￾ He also observed that “in 1997, one year after revelations about gambling resulted in a coach’s resignation, 13 student-athlete suspensions, an investigation by the NCAA, and hundreds of embarrassing media reports, applications for admission came in at 16,455, virtually unchanged from the previous year. Two years later, when applications jumped by a record 17 percent to 19,746, the surge followed a 4-7 year for football.â€￾ Going further back in history, he reported that applications had increased 9% in 1978, a year when BC football had its worst year ever, with a 0-11 record.

Actually, Boston College applications and donations had been on the rise for years. Analysis suggests there really was no Flutie Effect, but rather it happened that Doug Flutie found great gridiron success at a university that was already experiencing unprecedented growth.

Mr. McDonald posed the question “How does an idea like the “Flutie factorâ€￾ become sufficiently rooted that the New York Times cites it as a given without further comment and some universities invest millions of dollars in its enchanting possibilities?â€￾ He was provided with an answer by Barbara Wallraff, author of the “Word Courtâ€￾ column in the Atlantic Monthly: “It’s painful to fact-check everything. Media will often reprint what has been published, especially when it appears in reputable publications. ‘Flutie factor’ is a short, alliterative way to describe something that is complicated to explain. But what makes a good term is not always the literal truth.â€￾

Cujo
08-14-2007, 09:38 PM
Keeper .. All of us can agree that every situation is unique and experiences vary from college to college. The point was to try and educate that these kind of situations do occur and one might want to ask a few questions along these lines when you are evaluating a school.

I'd like to change the course of the thread a little. Forgetting about other factors for a minute, given the choice of two schools:

1 - With a strong program and quality players where your player might not play for a year or two (if ever)

or

2 - With a struggling program where you are fairly certain your player would play early

Which do people think is a better situation?

My nephew got offered a nice package at UNH but would have had to compete with another incoming goalie and two upperclassmen. He went with VWU and started all four years. It helped that he knew and trusted Sonny Travis, the coach. For him it was the right choice but the fact that he wanted to stay fairly close to home in VA was a factor too. I think it comes down to setting up a list of pros and cons and making the best decision all things considered.

beentheredonethat
08-15-2007, 06:20 AM
Closer to home.

I'd like to change the course of the thread a little. Forgetting about college factors for a minute, given the choice of two clubs:

1 - With a strong program and quality players where your player might not play for a year or two (if ever)
or
2 - With a struggling program where you are fairly certain your player would get lots of play time.

Few would choose #1, why would they choose it for college. Unless money was factor.

The reason I asked this question is that I personally made this part of my college choice based upon playing time and have since felt it was a mistake because even though I had success, in retrospect I think I played before I was truly ready. On top of that it was very very frustrating to play in a bad program. In my case I realize now that had I been willing to be patient I could have actually played for any of the national powers. Given a similar choice now I don't know what advice I would give to someone. I do know that the choice is not a slam dunk as the poster above would seem to indicate.

beentheredonethat
08-15-2007, 06:41 AM
BlueDevil .. I see your point, but where did the money to fuel all the expansion come from? I think an interesting spin on your point would be to look at whether or not fund raising dipped around the time of the gambling scandal. I would not be surprised at all if it was flat or even dropped.

08-15-2007, 08:35 AM
Closer to home.

I'd like to change the course of the thread a little. Forgetting about college factors for a minute, given the choice of two clubs:

1 - With a strong program and quality players where your player might not play for a year or two (if ever)
or
2 - With a struggling program where you are fairly certain your player would get lots of play time.

Few would choose #1, why would they choose it for college. Unless money was factor.

The reason I asked this question is that I personally made this part of my college choice based upon playing time and have since felt it was a mistake because even though I had success, in retrospect I think I played before I was truly ready. On top of that it was very very frustrating to play in a bad program. In my case I realize now that had I been willing to be patient I could have actually played for any of the national powers. Given a similar choice now I don't know what advice I would give to someone. I do know that the choice is not a slam dunk as the poster above would seem to indicate.

It is a slam dunk because there are so many other factors that you've left out. Many more variables to consider. Would a kid be better off going to UNH and manybe not playing or going to Tufts and playing for four years. Sorry if you're a UNH fan, but Tufts wins.

Cujo
08-15-2007, 08:54 AM
Closer to home.

I'd like to change the course of the thread a little. Forgetting about college factors for a minute, given the choice of two clubs:

1 - With a strong program and quality players where your player might not play for a year or two (if ever)
or
2 - With a struggling program where you are fairly certain your player would get lots of play time.

Few would choose #1, why would they choose it for college. Unless money was factor.

The reason I asked this question is that I personally made this part of my college choice based upon playing time and have since felt it was a mistake because even though I had success, in retrospect I think I played before I was truly ready. On top of that it was very very frustrating to play in a bad program. In my case I realize now that had I been willing to be patient I could have actually played for any of the national powers. Given a similar choice now I don't know what advice I would give to someone. I do know that the choice is not a slam dunk as the poster above would seem to indicate.

It is a slam dunk because there are so many other factors that you've left out. Many more variables to consider. Would a kid be better off going to UNH and manybe not playing or going to Tufts and playing for four years. Sorry if you're a UNH fan, but Tufts wins.

What if your major is agricultural or marine sciences? You go to UNH. International relations? go to Tufts. Like Keeper says there are so many unique circumstances that goes into the decision making process. the bottom line is that your education goals come first.

FSM
08-15-2007, 10:24 AM
Closer to home.

I'd like to change the course of the thread a little. Forgetting about college factors for a minute, given the choice of two clubs:

1 - With a strong program and quality players where your player might not play for a year or two (if ever)
or
2 - With a struggling program where you are fairly certain your player would get lots of play time.

Few would choose #1, why would they choose it for college. Unless money was factor.

The reason I asked this question is that I personally made this part of my college choice based upon playing time and have since felt it was a mistake because even though I had success, in retrospect I think I played before I was truly ready. On top of that it was very very frustrating to play in a bad program. In my case I realize now that had I been willing to be patient I could have actually played for any of the national powers. Given a similar choice now I don't know what advice I would give to someone. I do know that the choice is not a slam dunk as the poster above would seem to indicate.

There are tons and tons of kids that don't even finish school at the same institution and tons more who change majors mid season, so it should come as no surprise that the decisions one makes as an athlete may not always be the right ones either. Isn't that a big part of the college experience and growing up? No one has a crystal ball going in. The kid that goes in at 18 certainly isn't the same kid that comes out at 22. No matter how hard parents try to guide or shield kids from making similiar mistakes (or at least what the parent considers mistakes), it still comes down to kids finding out for themselves.

08-15-2007, 10:54 AM
Just to clarify some misconceptions posted:

1) BC is approximately the same size now as it was in the Flutie era, approximately 8,000 undergraduate students. The difference is in the composition of the student body. Effectively no commuters, active discrimination against those living within 2 hours of Chestnut Hill.

2) Colleges are actively re-examining their admissions policies. Women are approximately 60 - 65% of the students. This has been the trend for almost 20 years. The colleges have been tracking alumni donations and found that women do not donate. The ratio is approximately 20:1, i.e. male alumni donate $20 for every $1 that women donate. Moving forwards most colleges are attempting to get to a balance that more reflects the popluation, i.e. 52% male, 48% female. If they could without getting into trouble they would favor males even more.

Talking with HS guidance personel they have seen a trend at the "selective" colleges to attract more male students, i.e. a man has a better chance than a woman to be accepted all things being close to equal.

Great points MASC.
Just wanted to add that the "discrimination" at BC against local students has been going on since the 70's. At that time about 1/3 of the students were commuters. The school made it very difficult for local students to get on campus housing, even if they could afford it. Commuters were treated like second class citizens.

As for the "Flutie effect", the football success came at a time when the alum of the 40's and 50's had come into wealth and made them feel good about the school again. I was lucky enough to work for a WWII vet who went to BC on the GI bill and loved the place.

One ironic thing about the alumni donations.
Now they are asked annually to give money to the school where their own grandchildren have little chance of getting in, unless their family has moved out of Mass., like to New Jersey.

The noble goal of becoming a world class university has unfortunately had a negative effect on the locals who built it.

08-15-2007, 11:45 AM
Great points MASC.
Just wanted to add that the "discrimination" at BC against local students has been going on since the 70's. At that time about 1/3 of the students were commuters. The school made it very difficult for local students to get on campus housing, even if they could afford it. Commuters were treated like second class citizens.

It's also worth while to understand that scholarship money doesn't favor local kids either. Recruiting budgets would be cut is you spend your funds locally. It looks much better to bring in a kid from CA on a scholarship than it is to give it to a local kid.

Blue Devil
08-15-2007, 07:36 PM
Great points MASC.
Just wanted to add that the "discrimination" at BC against local students has been going on since the 70's. At that time about 1/3 of the students were commuters. The school made it very difficult for local students to get on campus housing, even if they could afford it. Commuters were treated like second class citizens.

It's also worth while to understand that scholarship money doesn't favor local kids either. Recruiting budgets would be cut is you spend your funds locally. It looks much better to bring in a kid from CA on a scholarship than it is to give it to a local kid.

Absolutely not true about the kid from far away looking better to a coach!

Any coach who will succeed is looking for the best players who fit his/her school's profile period; and the more of them who are in state the better. Having been been recruited and been part of the recruiting process from the coaching side I can 100% gaurantee you most coaches look to "build a fence" around the home state and get every in-state kid who is of the desired caliber to help his/her team.

Of course they will go after every kid they can get who fits their profile from out of state as well. But keeping the best in-state players (assuming they are good enough) is the easiest way to build a great team and allows the out of state players to improve on a strong base.

beentheredonethat
08-16-2007, 09:39 AM
It is a slam dunk because there are so many other factors that you've left out. Many more variables to consider.

I absolutely agree with you, but it seems that many want to gloss over the issues concerning the quality of the program. Many have said in different ways that as long as you pick the school for its academic qualities it really doesn't matter what the program is like. Are we saying that the sport really doesn't matter and that just simply playing is sufficient? Even if it means playing in a horrible situation? So the only answer is to pick an elite school even if the soccer program uses and abuses our child. I'm not sure that I buy that.

08-17-2007, 07:21 AM
FYI: For parents and players looking towards playing soccer in college it doesn't hurt to look at Div 3 college programs. They do offer academic scholarships and grants. Some of therse top Div 3 teams play better than some Div 1 teams. Again, Please stress academics to your player. A good strong education will bring you further in life than soccer.


D3Kicks.com Top 25
Divison III Women Preseason Ranking
1. Wheaton-IL (23) (0-0-0) 621 1
2 TCNJ (1) (0-0-0) 571 2
3 Messiah (0-0-0) 554 3
4 Hardin-Simmons (0-0-0) 504 6
5 Virginia Wesleyan (0-0-0) 499 4
6 Calvin (0-0-0) 452 5
7 UC-Santa Cruz (1) (0-0-0) 450 10
8 Washington & Lee (0-0-0) 396 8
9 Trinity-TX (0-0-0) 357 13
10 UW-Eau Claire (0-0-0) 354 11
11 Washington-MO (0-0-0) 342 9
12 Oneonta St. (0-0-0) 334 20
13 Wheaton-MA (0-0-0) 321 16
14 Rochester (0-0-0) 319 12
15 Amherst (0-0-0) 300 7
16 Johns Hopkins (0-0-0) 213 15
17 Denison (0-0-0) 196 17
18 Middlebury (0-0-0) 183 14
19 Western CT St. (0-0-0) 156 21
20 Elizabethtown (0-0-0) 140 18
21 Puget Sound (0-0-0) 134 23
22 Endicott (0-0-0) 130 19
23 Maryville-TN (0-0-0) 87 --
24 Augustana-IL (0-0-0) 79 24
25 York-PA (0-0-0) 54 --
Other Teams Receiving Votes Team Points Last Week
Macalester (0-0-0) 50 22
Willamette (0-0-0) 39 25
Transylvania (0-0-0) 34 --
Stevens Institute (0-0-0) 32 --
Redlands (0-0-0) 31 --
Methodist (0-0-0) 29 --
Wittenberg (0-0-0) 29 --
Ithaca (0-0-0) 22 --
Grinnell (0-0-0) 14 --
Green Mountain (0-0-0) 14 --
Springfield (0-0-0) 12 --
Union-NY (0-0-0) 11 --
DePauw (0-0-0) 10 --
Bates (0-0-0) 8 --
St. Scholastica (0-0-0) 8 --
Kenyon (0-0-0) 8 --
Texas Lutheran (0-0-0) 8 --
SUNY-Brockport (0-0-0) 6 --
Aurora (0-0-0) 4 --
Pomona-Pitzer (0-0-0) 3 --
UTexas-Dallas (0-0-0) 2 --
UW-Stevens Point (0-0-0) 2 --
Rhodes (0-0-0) 1 --
Swarthmore (0-0-0) 1 --
Otterbein (0-0-0) 1 --
Dropped Out Team Last Week
Macalester (0-0-0) 22
Willamette (0-0-0) 25

Good Luck in wherever you Go! It's a long journey so make it Enjoyable! :P

08-22-2007, 08:49 PM
Pre-season in well underway for all thiose new freshmen. Any reports back from any of these kids. Were they well prepared? Is it what they expected? I did hear of one who torn an ACL on her second day.

Cindy Lou
08-29-2007, 10:39 AM
If the goal for many is to see their kids play in college, does anyone follow the local college scene. Do you take your kids to watch any matches? Some of these local schools provide some very affordable enjoyable entertainment.

09-12-2007, 02:16 PM
Anyone know where I can find a decent Athletic Profile template?

MASoccer
09-12-2007, 02:23 PM
Anyone know where I can find a decent Athletic Profile template?

This one is for football but I would think you can easily adapt it to most other sports.

http://www.golets.org/forms/football%20profile.pdf

09-12-2007, 11:00 PM
Anyone know where I can find a decent Athletic Profile template?Here's on I found on the web and think it's decent.

http://crusoccer.com/imgs/teams/1989G1/mahoneyk.pdf

09-13-2007, 09:02 AM
Anyone know where I can find a decent Athletic Profile template?Here's on I found on the web and think it's decent.

http://crusoccer.com/imgs/teams/1989G1/mahoneyk.pdf

My read on this profile would be:

Too much team history and not enough infomation about the player. Old Tournament information is a waste of space as it says nothing about the current player. Listing which tournament you WILL be going to is far more important. Include more academic information to help the Coach determine if the college and the player may be a good match. SSAT, ACT, etc are VERY VERY important. Even consider adding a list of schools in which you may be interested. No one were consider that list binding, but it does tell a lot about the player. Bottom line, talk more about the Player and less about team or club history. How you are playing TODAY is far more important than the hsitory.

09-14-2007, 07:07 AM
Anyone know where I can find a decent Athletic Profile template?

Try the team pages on some of the local clubs, such as the Bolts.

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04-03-2008, 09:58 AM
From Soccer America - a useful bit of info for players trying to get recruited

By Avi Stopper

Wilbur Avataria is a good soccer player. He's been in touch with a dozen or so college coaches, visited a handful of those schools, and scored a stunning goal at Dallas Cup. Recruiting is moving along pretty well for him. But there's one glaring exception: he has no idea how serious any of these coaches are about having him on their teams.

Yes, he's sent them a profile, a copy of his transcript, and a video. He's visited their campuses, watched practices, and stayed with players. And he's gotten the coaches to see him play. It really seems like he's actually being recruited. (He text messaged his teammate the other day: "omg! it's happening!!! ttyl")

The problem? Despite the strides he's made, his status is still largely unclear. For all he knows, there could be 50 other players in the exact same position - and in fact, there probably are. College coaches maintain massive databases that contain up to 1,000 players. Gradually, coaches pick up information about the players in their database and then try to make well-reasoned judgments about who's right for their team.

Some players like Wilbur do everything right - they provide coaches with transcripts, schedules, videos, recommendations, etc. - but then fail to ask The Question: "Where do I stand?" The answer to this question is the only thing that really matters in recruiting. It lets you know whether you should continue your recruiting efforts with a given school or look elsewhere.

Doing the legwork to get to a college coach to know enough about you to make a well-reasoned judgment is essential. But once this has been accomplished, you must ask the college coach for an honest assessment. This information is invaluable; knowing where you stand with each college will help guide you through the rest of the recruiting process.

Before you go practice on your little brother, remember that The Question isn't meant to be an interrogation. You don't want to back the college coach into a corner with aggressive questioning. No less, the coach has the responsibility to provide you with an honest answer.

Here are four responses you might hear:

1. Join Us! In the best case scenario, the coach will tell you that he'd really like you to come play for his team. Would he have volunteered this information had you not asked? Who knows? The point is, asking The Question got you the answer you needed.

2. Uh, Sorry. There's always the possibility that you'll hear something like, "We don't feel like you're a good fit for our team." Ouch. It may sting, but getting this sort of honest response, painful as it may be, is actually a good thing. It lets you focus on the schools that are interested.

3. More Info Needed. Another response you may hear is, "We need to see you play more before we make a decision." This is great because it helps you plan your next steps. Ask what tournaments and camps he's going to be attending and then find a way to get to one of those events.

4. Ambiguous Blah. You may also get an ambiguous response along the lines of, "We think you can contribute." Don't be afraid to ask a follow-up question like, "What exactly does that mean?" The coach may still not be forthcoming, which is why it's essential for you to communicate with coaches at multiple schools. If things fall through in one place or are too ambiguous for comfort, you always have other warm leads.

No matter how the conversation goes, you should feel good about yourself for taking charge and asking the tough question. The best player-college coach relationships are built on honesty and respect. By being forthright about your interest and asking the coach to do the same, you're setting the right precedent.

(Avi Stopper played at Wesleyan University and coached at the University of Chicago. He is the founder of CaptainU, a recruiting web application that allows players and college coaches to meet, exchange information, and build relationships. Avi is also the author of the recruiting guidebook Make the Team and the host of the college recruiting podcast Radio CaptainU.)

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Just a week or so ago a nationally ranked U15 team from my state was at Disney. The reports back home were that there were 40 college coaches watching their first game and while college coaches usually leave before the finals, there were large numbers at the finals on Jan 2 to watch them and their opponents play. You can probably safely assume that these coaches represented some of the top programs in the country. It was also reported back that parents made sure that the appropriate coaches were aware that their daughters were interested in their schools. They also reported that the college coaches were in contact with the club coaches, expressing an interest in certain players. These girls are literally, 13, 14 and 15 years old (and in one case, the player is eligible to play as a U13). By the rules of the NCAA there was no direct contact with the players, but none the less there was contact made.

Gee, I wonder what state he or she is from.

04-08-2008, 03:50 PM
Gee I wonder why this is so BOrring? Stick to TS with your nastiness.

04-08-2008, 04:16 PM
How much do school grades matter in girls soccer recruiting?Is it like football and basketball,where one can take underwater basket weaving if you can play?Would a national/regional caliber player still be heavily recruited if she was a D average student?

04-08-2008, 04:24 PM
Depends on the school. D is probably too low for all schools.