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FSM
05-26-2007, 01:13 PM
Being involved for too many years as a coach and parent am I just being cranky when I cringe at the word player development. It seems to be used for so long and so tiringly. I know MPS uses it extensively when the promote SOE, all very nice guys by the way, and a nice program.

Teach how to play before how to win, fine at early stages. The object is to put the ball in the back of the net....One more extra pass, one more extra touch kills me...Shoot win there is a shot, even if its ugly. I am crankly and have Just been on the wrong end of 1 goal games I guess

I know from U14 on its about winning. All coaches want to win and be competative. You can't teach speed but you need it. Can't teach aggresion but you are lost without it.

I look at skills at the upper levels like the short game in golf. You need it on the green but you have to get on the green. Some programs sell to the parent that their kids are on the green when they are not. When they get some one who can get on the green they will take him (or her) and drop the other kid who just bought the new clubs.

I am just cranky...sorry for the bad analogy

I guess everyone is away this weekend except me and the dog. :(

I took this post out of the MPS thread because the topic of player development is probably the most frequent topic of any soccer forums and thought it deserved a thread of it's own here.

"You can't teach speed but you need it. Can't teach aggresion but you are lost without it."

Do you really think this is true?

butkusfan
05-26-2007, 01:43 PM
If when we talk about speed you mean improving your 40 yard dash time then the answer is yes you can "teach" speed. There are currently any number of programs and clinics out there that gurantee just this type of improvement. That doesn't mean that with effort anyone can become a world class sprinter - but flat out foot speed is variable just like any other physical activity. Same is true of lateral speed. However, if what we mean is reaction speed or speed in decision making then I think that the hope is that these things will improve as an indirect result of other training and the overall improvement of a player who becomes more confident and secure in using their skills. I think agression becomes much less important as players age. In essence there is an element of natural selection here. If you as a player are unwilling to make the commitment to the game (both on and off the field) you tend to find other activities for your time. By U-14 there simply aren't too many MAPLE D1 players that are seriously gun shy about playing the game. By this point I think we mistake limits on reaction and decision speed for lack of agression. Sure there are some players who seem more willing to sell out their body to get to every 50/50 ball, but those same players are often out of control or making up for a prior bad decision. Still I do think that we sometimes over-emphasize the stylish components as opposed to the result. Meaning that you see players and teams with lots of flash but no ability to win games. This is why the direct style of physical play can work because it can really take advantage of an opposing team's inability to put the ball in the back of the net. It may not be pretty but it is effective.

tooslowtball
05-29-2007, 05:53 AM
I meant in my quote more specifically breakaway speed. I benefited from speed training in college so am aware of how well it works, but it does take a lot a work, and pain, I can still feel those hammys to this day.

Here is a question that I thought about after reading Shaire Joesph's bio.

Is soccer like hockey where skills have to be learnt early or like football where, even in the pros, a good athlete can become a good player.

Years ago I was inclined to think soccer was like hockey but now in my 3rd time through I am not sure. Joesph is a good example and I have seen coaches use speedsters to break down defenses. Tall men in the middle for headers, 50 yard Flip throwin specialists.

(my finishing problem has reached new heights, an impossble miss from two yards out, but I'm less cranky)

FSM
05-30-2007, 01:01 PM
Here is a question that I thought about after reading Shaire Joesph's bio.

Is soccer like hockey where skills have to be learnt early or like football where, even in the pros, a good athlete can become a good player.

Years ago I was inclined to think soccer was like hockey but now in my 3rd time through I am not sure. Joesph is a good example and I have seen coaches use speedsters to break down defenses. Tall men in the middle for headers, 50 yard Flip throwin specialists.


What did you read about Shalrie that makes you think differently? Is it just his size? Watching him play I think he is amazingly slow as far as outright speed is concerned. Which may be one of the reasons he plays in the middle. Amazingly fast and about the same size is Khano Smith, but his touch on the ball leaves much to be desired IMO. I wish the Revs could find someone better on the left side.

(my finishing problem has reached new heights, an impossble miss from two yards out, but I'm less cranky)

So many complain about this, yet when I watch professional soccer, it just amazes me how many times the top professionals miss. There must be statistics on it. does anyone know?

pitch420
05-30-2007, 01:13 PM
Is soccer like hockey where skills have to be learnt early or like football where, even in the pros, a good athlete can become a good player.



The fundamental skill, skating, should be learned early as that takes years to perfect. Thats one thing missing today in the NHL, very few are good skaters.

Bruins had 2, maybe 3 who could skate. The Captain certainly wasnt one of them.

tooslowtball
05-30-2007, 03:30 PM
From what I read Joesph did not follow a traditional development path needless to say. He kinda of just walked on to a Junior college team then to a college team who took him under their wing.

His size and strength helped him dominate. I agree sometimes he looks slow but he gets to the ball quick. Also much better to see in person than on TV (something I also noticed about Bobby Orr,not to compare the two)

He, I am sure played street ball in Grenada but no ODP training, special summer camps or SOE.

I know the Globe had an article on it a few years back and a lot of the details I forget.

My point is he did not get into serious soccer until after High School.

In regards to Smith his speed makes the defense back up almost immediately and forget about trapping. His pace is a little off. I would put him in the second half of the second half to cause havoc and creat space for Twellmen.

Red99
05-30-2007, 04:41 PM
Shalrie - favorite player, there is a reason he was team MVP last year. Great vision and I agree much more impressive when you see him in person and watch him off the ball. Love the fact that he "developed" late -- just another example that development never ends. Disagree about his speed, it is the position he plays that makes him look slow(er) but no one does it better at defensive midfield. On speed, my spouse made a comment in watching the Ireland game last week with one very quick left striker that if you have speed you can earn a spot much more quickly (then pick up other skills later) vs. if you don't have it and are trying to improve on it. Not sure where I come out on that.

FSM
05-30-2007, 05:15 PM
I like Shalrie too and as a season ticket holder got a chance to meet him in person. He is very likable off field too. However, I think there is a difference between outright running speed, which I don't believe he has having seen him beaten too many times in a foot race and quickness to the ball which comes from reading the game and knowing where to be a step ahead of everyone else. This may relate to his success in the midfield. That and those long legs.

FSM
05-30-2007, 05:31 PM
Also, I asked a coach who is associated with the Brooklyn Knights and has placed quite a few of their players at St John's if he knew where Shalrie had played as a youth. Here's his answer:

"He played for us in two tournaments. He did his real playing in the Helenic league (Greek league) adult league. We tried to get him."

So I don't think you can consider Shalrie as a late bloomer, he has just followed a different path getting to where he is.

09-30-2008, 09:50 AM
Being involved for too many years as a coach and parent am I just being cranky when I cringe at the word player development. It seems to be used for so long and so tiringly. I know MPS uses it extensively when the promote SOE, all very nice guys by the way, and a nice program.

Teach how to play before how to win, fine at early stages. The object is to put the ball in the back of the net....One more extra pass, one more extra touch kills me...Shoot win there is a shot, even if its ugly. I am crankly and have Just been on the wrong end of 1 goal games I guess

I know from U14 on its about winning. All coaches want to win and be competative. You can't teach speed but you need it. Can't teach aggresion but you are lost without it.

I look at skills at the upper levels like the short game in golf. You need it on the green but you have to get on the green. Some programs sell to the parent that their kids are on the green when they are not. When they get some one who can get on the green they will take him (or her) and drop the other kid who just bought the new clubs.

I am just cranky...sorry for the bad analogy[/quote]

I guess everyone is away this weekend except me and the dog. :(

I took this post out of the MPS thread because the topic of player development is probably the most frequent topic of any soccer forums and thought it deserved a thread of it's own here.

"You can't teach speed but you need it. Can't teach aggresion but you are lost without it."

Do you really think this is true?