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FSM
05-22-2007, 10:06 AM
So here is what appears to be the final numbers for red cards for the 2007 Spring Maple season:

BY DATE
April 1: 4
April 15: 1
April 22: 7
April 28 & 29: 8
May 6: 3
May 12 & 13: 21
May 17: 1
May 20 & 21: 14
Total: 59

TOTAL
51 Players
8 Team Officials

BOYS TEAMS
48 Players
5 Team Officials

GIRLS TEAMS
3 Players
3 Team Officials


BOYS TEAMS BY CLUB
North Shore 6
Boston Alliance 4
Western United 4
FC United 3
Lusitana 3
Northeast Sting 3
Boston United 2
Crusaders 2
Devils Utd 2
Hammer SC 2
Inter Bandits 2
RISC 2
Warriors 2
Bayside United 1
Boston Blast 1
Dynamis 1
Eastern Mass 1
FC Bayern 1
FC Greater Boston 1
Legend 1
Mutiny 1
NESS 1
Pioneers 1
Roma 1
Sporting SC 1
SSU Blazers 1
Taunton Eagles 1
Unity Wildcats 1
Westenhook 1
Total: 53

Team Official By Club:
North Shore 2
Crusaders 1
FC Greater Boston 1
RISC 1
Total: 5

GIRLS TEAMS BY CLUB
1 each:
Scorpions
Fuller Hamlets
FC Greater Boston
Inter Bandits
Nashoba United
Sachems FC
Total: 6

Team Officials By Club:
Scorpions
Fuller Hamlets
Nashoba United
Total: 3

teskicks
05-22-2007, 10:22 AM
Sounds like I wouldn't want my kid playing for North Shore if you go by these numbers.

05-22-2007, 10:33 AM
Sounds like I wouldn't want my kid playing for North Shore if you go by these numbers.

Something they should all be proud of. A real credit to the league. It’s about the only thing this club could achieve at.

FSM
05-22-2007, 10:48 AM
BTW, as I was musing to some of my soccer buddies about the physicality of this past weekend's game, using much the same description as Costas Flessas had given in the old forum "physical, violent, fouling from behind" (which maybe shouldn't be a big surprise since there is a common denominator), I was told that it would not be tolerated by refs on the boys side and perhaps I was being overly sensitive to the level of physical play. In other words they said, physical play should be expected even from girls teams and you who are associated with girls teams often whine when the game is physical, but clean, which is why the refs don't produce cards. That's a possibility; although I believe I know the difference between clean and physical and physical that should result in a foul and sometimes a card.

Still, maybe I'm not being objective. There was a time when my oldest played that I felt refs blew the whistle too much for infractions such as a broken nail or giving an opponent a dirty look. :shock: But I am wondering about the fact that 48 boys were red carded this season, but only 3 girls, and at least 1 of those girls was red carded because she swore. :oops: Is there that big a difference between how boys and girls play or is there a reluctance on the part of refs to card girls for things other than swearing? As we have had multiple players injured playing this team in particular, I'm thinking a card early in the game might have helped keep some of our kids off crutches. It also might force coaches to think about how they teach the game.

05-22-2007, 11:38 AM
BTW, as I was musing to some of my soccer buddies about the physicality of this past weekend's game, using much the same description as Costas Flessas had given in the old forum "physical, violent, fouling from behind" (which maybe shouldn't be a big surprise since there is a common denominator), I was told that it would not be tolerated by refs on the boys side and perhaps I was being overly sensitive to the level of physical play. In other words they said, physical play should be expected even from girls teams and you who are associated with girls teams often whine when the game is physical, but clean, which is why the refs don't produce cards. That's a possibility; although I believe I know the difference between clean and physical and physical that should result in a foul and sometimes a card.

Still, maybe I'm not being objective. There was a time when my oldest played that I felt refs blew the whistle too much for infractions such as a broken nail or giving an opponent a dirty look. :shock: But I am wondering about the fact that 48 boys were red carded this season, but only 3 girls, and at least 1 of those girls was red carded because she swore. :oops: Is there that big a difference between how boys and girls play or is there a reluctance on the part of refs to card girls for things other than swearing? As we have had multiple players injured playing this team in particular, I'm thinking a card early in the game might have helped keep some of our kids off crutches. It also might force coaches to think about how they teach the game.

These must be the coaches that believe it is not their responsibility to control their players - it is the responsibility of the referees. That attitude can be pretty wide spread among coaches in some clubs and I'm not sure much can be done to change it. It can also spread to the parents on the touchline which can lead to some pretty ugly situations when 2 like teams play one another.

05-22-2007, 12:13 PM
The difference can be explained in one word TESTOSTERONE

Nutsforsoccer
05-22-2007, 12:25 PM
The difference can be explained in one word TESTOSTERONE

Or two words... POOR COACHING!

FSM
05-22-2007, 01:19 PM
The difference can be explained in one word TESTOSTERONE

Initially, that's what I thought too, but now I'm wondering. If testosterone were the only answer I would expect the cards to be pretty evenly distributed through all boys teams and its not. Absent in the list are some of the top boys teams, like FCGB.

MASC
05-22-2007, 02:57 PM
FCGB had one official ejected.

The numbers are large, but what is the percentage of cards to games played on a league wide basis? What is the break down by ages?

Warning: Gross generalizations follow:

Girls tend to play a more tactically sophisticated game than boys. Boys love the power game. The HS boys play at a speed that girls can only dream about. There is a sort of reckless abandon in much of the boys' play that is dangerous and will/must draw red cards.

Are male referees less likely to show a red card to girls?

MASC has two red cards this season, both to U15/U16 boys. One adult ejection (BU14) and one parent banned (BU10).

The MASC boys have accummulated more yellow cards than the girls, but in that respect the girls are not the least bit bashful.

FSM
05-22-2007, 03:06 PM
FCGB had one official ejected.



That's correct, but we are talking about players..

MASC
05-22-2007, 03:30 PM
An official being ejected is much worse than a player. You were talking about red cards/ejections.

A player can be ejected for making a bad decision on the field, e.g. tackling from behind and not touching the ball or a field player catching the ball in front of the goal. Receiving two cautions. With out knowing the details one does not know the seriousness if the infractions causing the ejection.

A coach being ejected always involves gross misbehavior. You specifically mentioned FCGB as a paragon of virtue. The majority of clubs are totally absent from the list.

The adult ejections are much more a cause for concern than the players. Wait for the disciplinary action through the state organization to see whether there is anything unusual this spring.

onthree
05-22-2007, 03:50 PM
There has been discussion around boy/girl, player/coach, younger/older. I believe there is another point of interest: statistically few cards in Div. I.

Susy Soccer
05-22-2007, 03:53 PM
I assume that any red cards with two and six game suspensions are for fighting not just recklessness, right?

Anyone know what happened? No kids names' necessary.

FSM
05-22-2007, 04:15 PM
Hey Pitch, I think I've caught up with you.

An official being ejected is much worse than a player. You were talking about red cards/ejections.

No most recently I have been speaking of the difference between the number of cards given boys as compared to girls.

A player can be ejected for making a bad decision on the field, e.g. tackling from behind and not touching the ball or a field player catching the ball in front of the goal. Receiving two cautions. With out knowing the details one does not know the seriousness if the infractions causing the ejection.

And tackling from behind was exactly the reason I brought up the subject. Not only have I seen it done in girls games, but I have seen it cause serious injury, not once, but multiple times. I have yet to see the infraction a cardable offense. Perhaps I will bring a video camera to State Cups to prove the point.

A coach being ejected always involves gross misbehavior. You specifically mentioned FCGB as a paragon of virtue. The majority of clubs are totally absent from the list.

Did I say FCGB was a paragon of virtue??? I thought what I said was that the better boys teams, like FCGB, are not included on the list and I was referencing players not officials. This would tie into Nutsforsoccer's opinion that it is about coaching they receive, not their testosterone levels and perhaps that is what Onthree alludes to by saying there are fewer cards given to D1 players.

The adult ejections are much more a cause for concern than the players. Wait for the disciplinary action through the state organization to see whether there is anything unusual this spring.

Yes, I agree with you.

FSM
05-22-2007, 04:33 PM
Hey Pitch, I think I just past you.

There has been discussion around boy/girl, player/coach, younger/older. I believe there is another point of interest: statistically few cards in Div. I.

I don't think it is statistically significant in this particular sampling. If I counted correctly, 13 red cards were given to D1 players, 14 to D2 and 21 to D3. On the girls side 2 of the 3 players were D1, the third D3. I don't think we can draw any definite conclusions, but I wasn't surprised that the more competitive level on the girls side has 2 of 3 cards. Nor was I surprised that 2 of the 3 girls were GKs. ;)

There is definitely a testosterone effect on the number of red cards by age on the boys side. 43 of the 48 boys who received red cards were U15 or older, so we probably can assume for most boys puberty hits hard around U15.

05-23-2007, 07:20 AM
Sounds like I wouldn't want my kid playing for North Shore if you go by these numbers.

who are the six red carded players from North Shore? i counted 4. 2 team officials.

teskicks
05-23-2007, 08:15 AM
I was speaking to the numbers posted by FSM. I went back and counted myself and I counted 4 players and 2 team officials. Still not good.

One other note. It looks like one of the Boston Alliance players is listed twice for the same game. Is that possible?

Susy Soccer
05-23-2007, 08:33 AM
I think once you ejected then you can't get another card. What on earth did the player do to get a 6 game suspension? Was there a fight accompanied by racial epithets?

05-24-2007, 09:58 AM
I was speaking to the numbers posted by FSM. I went back and counted myself and I counted 4 players and 2 team officials. Still not good.

One other note. It looks like one of the Boston Alliance players is listed twice for the same game. Is that possible?

Regarding North Shore, 4 players and 2 officials is correct. The confusion may be because I listed the totals under Boys By Clubs when I should have listed it as Boys Teams By Clubs. I have since edited the post to avoid any future confusion.

Regarding Boston Alliance, I think I caught all the players who were listed twice and only counted them once, with the exception of one that was listed as a player and then again as a Team Official. I made the assumption that it might have been a father and son.

05-24-2007, 10:00 AM
I'd like to return to the issue of gender differences. Is there a reluctance to card girls? Suggesting that the difference in ejections is simply a testosterone issue does not address the issue that only 3 girls received cardable ejections.

Since MAPLE doesn't list yellow cards, we don't know how many girls are being warned and we don't know whether the ejections listed are 2 yellows or straight red (although I believe swearing receives a straight red). I thought I might get some insight by looking at other leagues. It's tough to compare apples to apples, but I thought the WAGS league might be a good place to begin. WAGS provides a Yellow/Red Card report that breaks down offenses as yellow, double yellow and red, so here is what I found there.

For comparison purposes, WAGSL has approximately 413 teams from U10 to U18 playing 7 games in Spring 2007. MAPLE has a total of 262 girls teams playing in the same age brackets also playing 7 games.

In the WAGSL Yellow/Red Card Report, there were a total of 202 yellow cards issued, 7 double yellows and 18 reds for a total of 25 ejections. The youngest WAGSL players given a card were 2 U10s who received yellows and the youngest WAGSL players to receive straight red were 3 U11s. MAPLE's total for all age groups was the same number as WAGSL U11s, 3 (1 U17 and 2 U18s).

Based on WAGSL's numbers, I am concluding that either the refs down south are a lot tougher, the girls playing in Mass. foul a lot less, or the numbers of ejections based on the number of girls teams playing in MAPLE as compared to WAGSL should be 4 or 5 times what has been given. And an additional 128 or so yellows should also be handed out. It would have been nice to see a couple of those yellows this past weekend and I'll bet Costas would have liked a few at his game 2 weekends ago.

Cujo
05-24-2007, 10:22 AM
There are some pretty intense rivalries in WAGS. There is a little bit of the Hatfield / McCoy syndrome that goes on between the well to do communities and the "hill folk". The trash talk gets pretty nasty in forums, on the sidelines and on the fields. You do not see alot of that in MAPLE because the player socio-economic demographics are more homogenous here. When I coached an urban HS team my girls used to get some of that treatment from the burbs. esp Lynnfield and Austin Prep.

05-24-2007, 01:13 PM
You would at least need to normalize the results between boys and girls in the Washington area before assuming that socio-economic and racial differences (which are certainly more prevelant in the northern Virginia, DC and Maryland area than greater Boston) result in more game difficulties. Those are assumptions and accusations that you simply cannot make via anecdotal evidence without lots of real solid empirical data to back it up. Even with such empirical data you run into serious problems of simply seeking evidence to back-up your pre-determined suppositions. Look at the recent study regarding race and NBA officiating as an example of statistics and data gone wrong. That said I will now offer lots of anecdotal observations.

I think that the greater Boston girls game does tend to be a little more subdued than some other regions (especially, ENY, EPA and DC area). Maybe it is partly socio-economic, better connected parents or better coaching up here - who really knows?? Also, there is simply less slide tackling on the girls side, resulting in less out of control fouls. I also think that refs are more likely to give a girl the benefit of the doubt on a close call, generally not automatically attributing the soccer version of mens rea needed for a card. In the older boys games you can receive a card simply based on the action, with girls most refs make them earn the card and are more likely to believe that verbal warnings can reign in a physical player. Finally 14-17 YO boys are naturally more agressive because of the infusion of large quanities of a certain hormone.

FSM
05-28-2007, 11:01 AM
I think that the greater Boston girls game does tend to be a little more subdued than some other regions (especially, ENY, EPA and DC area).

Whoever said this, your view is apparently being substantiated from reports coming out of US Club Regionals; however, cards are being given out, but only for the blatant unsportsmanlike conduct. Swearing is not included though, because I'm told there has been plenty of it.