College search

Hello,

I've been reading the dish on college coaches and was hoping you folks could help with some recommendations as my son begins his college wish list. I know you can offer more inside info than collegboard.com!

Here's his criteria:
Div 2 or 3
Good academics, (he's a good student ) undecided major
Medium sized
Good college town

He's been inundated with info since the PSATS and we're hoping you guys can help us narrow it down. No flaming, please. Just looking for some help. OK?

Re: College search

Using this forum as a serious source for narrowing your wish list is suspect from the start and likely will result in another disastrous thread. Have you considered consulting with your high school guidance counselor or someone (a coach or DOC) in your club who might be knowledgeable about both potential schools and real ability level of your son?

Having said that, you need to be a little more refined in your description of criteria, starting with 1) are you confident that your son can play at the D2 or D3 level (as your omission of D1 already may suggest that you know there is a question) because contributing players at the average to above average D2 and D3 schools are very, very good players (and probably better than you think); and 2) is your son an outstanding student or just a good student. The honest and realistic answers to these questions could narrow your search considerably.

Re: College search

Hi , Me again. When I reread my post, I see that I am really asking alot, so maybe I should be more specific:

Which Northeast region Div 2 or 3 schools play attractive soccer?



In reply, high school guidance counselors I've found don't know much and we will consult his club coaches, thanks.
(He's a B student with A potential and a very good soccer player on a premier level team)

Re: College search

Hi , Me again. When I reread my post, I see that I am really asking alot, so maybe I should be more specific:

Which Northeast region Div 2 or 3 schools play attractive soccer?



In reply, high school guidance counselors I've found don't know much and we will consult his club coaches, thanks.
(He's a B student with A potential and a very good soccer player on a premier level team)

Where are you coming from?

Now that Holy Cross has hired Ted Priestly, even though they are D1, your son might want to consider that school, assuming he can get in academically. Not up there in academics? Franklin Pierce has replaced Priestly with Craig Stewart, another very good coach.

[Oz9]

Re: College search

Priestly came from UMass Lowell.

The former Franklin Pierce head coach went to BC as an assistant.

Re: College search

Here's a question for any coaches out there or other folks who are truly knowledgeable on these distinctions.....What are the differences between a solidly contributing player at higher end D3 schools like Wheaton, Williams, Bates, Colby, etc. and mid to lower level D1 schools like Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross, etc.? These are all schools that a very good academic student might apply to anyway, regardless of soccer, and so I'm wondering if the above types of D3 and D1 schools attract the same pool of players, or are there really qualitative differences between the players at these schools (aside from the very, very kids who might get some athletic money at the D1 schools)? For a kid looking at these schools, is there a real soccer playing distinction they need to make, or should they just pick whichever of the above types of schools they prefer, regardless of division? Would a kid who plays at Wheaton or Bates be able to play at Bucknell or Colgate?

And to the Mom who started this thread, if your son is a soph., then he better turn that "A Potential" into actual As throughout junior year. If he's already a junior it may be too late. The type of schools listed above generally are not going to take a solid B student, unless SAT/ACT scores are off the chart and/or he has built a new irrigation system or school or in Uganda.

Re: College search

Any college search should begin with academics, not soccer. Guestmom, I would start with a very cold, realistic look at how good a student your son really is. Grades will matter a lot, as will SAT scores. Between his GPA and SATs, you can get a pretty good idea of how selective a school he might get into. Your high school should be able to give you information on how students with similar gpa/sats have done.

A lot of the ideas you're seeking can be obtained from sources like US News' annual college issue. Those rankings are NOT PRECISE. DO NOT TAKE THEM AS GOSPEL!!! However, they bear some GENERAL correlation between the relative prestige/quality of a given school and perceptions "out there." Amherst and Williams top the list -- no surprise there. They are among the country's most famous colleges and VERY, VERY hard to get into. A student who's not a recruited athlete would have to be an A student through all of high school in honors classes, along with 2100+ SATs to get seriously considered (and I mean considered, not admitted - a school like this turns kids with 2100s down very frequently). Being a soccer player will help if the college coach really wants the player. But even then, grades/scores matter. From how you describe your son's academic record, unless he's a fabulous soccer player, these schools will be a serious reach.

By way of contrast, the 25th US ranked small liberal arts college is Bates. It's an excellent school. A student should be very happy to go there. But it's not nearly as selective as Amherst. That having been said, a student still needs to be well above average at most public high schools to get a good shot there. SATs in the 1900 range probably get a good look. Again, a recruited athlete has an edge, but there's a limit to how much that can make up.

The 49th ranked schools (there are 4 of them) are DePauw, Gettysburg, Pitzer, and Rhodes. These are all good colleges with strong student bodies, very much worth considering. In candor though, for whatever reason, they don't attract the same quality of applicant as Amherst or Bates and are therefore less prestigious and easier to get into. SATs in the 1800 range will get serious consideration.

I hope this gives you an idea of how I'd go about this. College admissions are stressful on kids and parents. But the good news is that there are so many colleges offering excellent educations. At the same time, though, parents have to be realistic to help their kids. We all think our kids are great, and rightly so. But there are lots of great kids out there, and the Amhersts of the world are absurdly selective because they can afford the luxury. Parents must therefore identify the schools where their kids have a good, solid shot, and then expand the list "up" and "down" from there. Not until the basic list has been identified should soccer be used to narrow things. After all, kids quit, get cut, or get injured, but they won't stop going to class. That's why academic fit must come first.

Re: College search

Fabulous post above^^^^. Might quibble with you about Bates. Might have said Bates sounds like a very serious reach along others in the same range rankings-wise (via US News) with Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, etc. being virtually impossible for a strong B student. If the player is that good to influence the admissions decision to the latter ultra upper-tier schools, then he's probably not going to be looking at these schools anyway (unless he already knows he's going to be a neurosurgeon and not an EPL or MLS player).

Anyway, the entire post was clear, balanced, and very well-said. Mind taking a crack at the question about that regarding high-end D3 vs. lower end D1???

Re: College search

This is good info, thank you so much! He's a junior and had a major academic slump the beginning of this this year. His GPA is 3.5 and his PSATs were 174.
We were told to apply to 7 schools; 2 reach, 3 good matches and 2 safety schools. Academically speaking, I would say Bates is within the reach range and Franklin Pierce in the safety category. It's that middle ground we're looking for. Student life and academics are important, but so is soccer and it would be nice to find a solid, stylish team to balance things out. I'm hoping to help him narrow down the list so he can start actively contacting coaches before the Spring season ramps up.

Re: College search

guestmom, you make references to "attractive" and "stylish" soccer...not quite sure what that means or if you're going to get to pick based on that. Strong programs in the middle range you cite might be St. Anselm and maybe Wheaton, Stonehill, Hampshire College, Clark, Assumption, Babson, Bentley, Norwich, etc.

Re: College search

Don't know if this has been covered in the forum previously, but it is worth noting (and lamenting) that there are not many worse places to be than Massachusetts in terms of competition for college. The area is inundated with elite prep and parochial schools, plus suburban area high schools packed with B+/A- students who take all or mostly all Honors/AP courses. There are also a huge number of A-/B+ soccer players. The competition for spots in the more elite colleges for kids in our area is fierce. Would be better to be from South Dakota, Wyoming, or Alaska, and for those kids (and parents) in MA willing to look outside the region chances of admission might be better at equally ranked schools in the Midwest, South, and West.

Re: College search

Our HS senior has several offers to play, none with any significant $$$. However this student is honor role and honor society and did very well on SAT. We are getting significant scholarship offers for academics. Not full ride, but very, very good.

This player would be effective at a college D3,D2 level. It would be nice to have a college soccer career, but at this point it may not happen because of financial reasons. We need the scholarships and you have to maintain the grades.

Re: College search

To the poster asking about D3 v. D1, I can only respond about the players I know that have gone to "high D3." I think it's fair to say that many, but not all, could have gone to a "low D1" program given their soccer resumes. I'd have to let the college coaches on this board say more about this.

Guestmom, I don't think that 7 schools is enough. If your child intends to apply to a school like Bates, it is a big reach. The PSAT scores you mention would, if converted to SATs, put him in the lower 25% or so of Bates' acceptance range. Kids accepted in that range usually have something extra going for them like donor/legacy connections, UNUSUAL talent outside of classroom, etc. Soccer is going to have to do a lot for him in the admissions process (i.e. the coach is going to have to really advocate for him), unless there are other factors (unusual personal background, economic/social obstacles overcome, etc.). I have observed and heard about too many kids who "should" get into "solid chance" schools to be comfortable that 3 applications gives a good enough chance of admission to that level of school. And 2 safeties is too risky for my taste as well. If it were my child, I'd increase to around 10-12 schools, with 3 safety (and they should be REAL safeties), 4-5 solids, and however many reaches you choose to add.

And finally, I'd urge not to ask the "stylish soccer" question till the academic fit question has been answered. What does your child want to study? Why a small liberal arts school and not a university? What kind of social scene (e.g. fraternities? Jocks? Politically active? Granola/hippie?)? I'd really urge you to identify 20 schools that fit first. Then investigate their soccer programs. Remember, college coaches change all the time, so the stylish soccer you seek can disappear literally overnight. By contrast, the essential programs of a school are relatively constant.

Re: College search

The ability of the players in D1, D2 and D3 (womens) is a great deal more fluid than in some other sports - namely basketabll. No doubt that there are players in the two lower divisions that would be outstanding in D1. There are also many D2 and D3 teams that would be competitive in the mid and lower D1 conferences. In a single match there can be no doubt that any team can play with just about any other team, so I don't think that anyone would be surprised if a team like Amherst or Williams beat (or even crushed) a Holy Cross or even U Mass. However, the Bryant example shows that the over-all competitiveness of D1 is significantly better than D2 or D3. It isn't about single games or even a single season, but the pressures to recruit and compete every year. That is the big difference between D1 and D2. I have also found that the quality of womens player has increased so much in the last 5 years that the landscape is dramatically changing. The changes in D1 recruiting which have led to earlier committments are not just the result of the coaches. The xplosion of club soccer involvememt coupled with the time and financial out-lays by parents and players have added to the pressure to recruit earlier. It has also directed more of the top players into D1 (and the money) and away from D3. Look at it this way. If Colgate or Bucknell is willing to give considerable admissions aid, some decent scholarship $$ and have you wrapped up by March or April of your Junior year, why would you wait around for Bowdoin or Trinity? Some will, but the system is widening the differences between D1 and D3.

Re: College search

I'm not the guestmom, but thanks again for the excellent posts above.

The ultra-soccer critics complain about the level of soccer in the US, but the youth soccer explosion has created an overwhelming number of very good (as opposed to absolutely fantastic) players. Put that together with a very high number of very good students in Massachusetts (and New England in general), and the college search is tough.

To the poster above, are you saying that a recruit for Bucknell and Colgate could find out how much academic/needs money they'll get in spring on junior year in addition to any athletic money? Does this apply more to women than men?

Another question is the relative time commitments of mid to low-end D1 vs. D3. Do the D1 schools run the kids ragged, and can they lose both their athletic and academic money, or just whatever small athletic that they get? Are the higher-end D3 players training year-round?