Ask the REF

[Cujo]

Provide as much detail as possible and we will weigh in and provide our view on the call that has you wondering from last weeks game.

Then pay it forward by helping educate other parents on the sideline. Peer pressure works even for 40 year olds. Positive behavior on the sidelines begins with YOU!!!! Change the world one act at a time.

Try something different this week. After the game - walk up to the official and shake his hand and thank him for his time. Make sure your kid does it too.

There is a connection - the coaches that are the best behaved are also the ones whose players thank the officials 100% of the time. Unfortunately the opposite holds true as well.

[Unregistered]

An offensive player brings the ball into the box on a breakaway -- there is no defender between this offensive player / shooter and the keeper. This offensive player takes a shot and the ball bounces off the keeper to the feet on another offensive player, who at the time of reccovering the ball is also ahead of the last defender. The second offensive player shoots and scores, but the goal is ruled offside.

Note: The second offensive player was not offside at the time of the shot, but moved into an offside position after the ball bounced off the keeper.

What would your call have been and why?

Thanks!

[Cujo]

An offensive player brings the ball into the box on a breakaway -- there is no defender between this offensive player / shooter and the keeper. This offensive player takes a shot and the ball bounces off the keeper to the feet on another offensive player, who at the time of reccovering the ball is also ahead of the last defender. The second offensive player shoots and scores, but the goal is ruled offside.

Note: The second offensive player was not offside at the time of the shot, but moved into an offside position after the ball bounced off the keeper.

What would your call have been and why?

Thanks!

If I understand your post correctly - my view is that the officials judgment was that player #2 was in an offside position when #1 played the ball properly to breakaway. #2 does not become offside until they become involved in the play - in this case it was when the rebound occurred. The officials judgment is based on a number of factors but typically they cannot be close to the GK or the 2nd last defender or they would influence the play when #1 beats the second to last defender. Essentially they remain offside until the play is resolved. Their position when the ball is moved past the second to last defender by #1 is what really matters and is likely what prompted the officials call. If they were onside when #1 moved past the second to last defender then I would say the A/R did not identify it properly or if no A/R - the C/R got confused about positioning. If it were a bang bang play it is easy to misread positions without the A/R help.

[Unregistered]

An offensive player brings the ball into the box on a breakaway -- there is no defender between this offensive player / shooter and the keeper. This offensive player takes a shot and the ball bounces off the keeper to the feet on another offensive player, who at the time of reccovering the ball is also ahead of the last defender. The second offensive player shoots and scores, but the goal is ruled offside.

Note: The second offensive player was not offside at the time of the shot, but moved into an offside position after the ball bounced off the keeper.

What would your call have been and why?

Thanks!

I'm not a referee but I play one on these message boards.

I say goal because at the time the offensive player #1 shot the ball, offensive player #2 was behind the ball. If you're behind the ball, you're not offside if the ball is played to you (i.e. this is essentially a back pass).

[Unregistered]

Thanks, Cujo.

The second offensive player was behind the last defender at the time of the shot. The last defender was going for the 1st offensive player as she broke into the box, but for some reason slowed down and let the shot be taken. After the shot was deflected by the keeper, but before the last defender could regain position, the second offensive player moved ahead of the last defender and shot/scored.

Play was called offside on the second offensive player, although they were never truly in an offside position during any of the play and, therefore, did not or could not be called for an "away from the ball" influence on the play.

I think it happened quickly and the A/R was either (1) out of position, so called the offside, or (2) inexperienced and didn't understand what had happened.

Either way, I always hope "bad" calls balance over the course of the game and don't influence the final outcome. Although that is not always the case.

[Unregistered]

An offensive player brings the ball into the box on a breakaway -- there is no defender between this offensive player / shooter and the keeper. This offensive player takes a shot and the ball bounces off the keeper to the feet on another offensive player, who at the time of reccovering the ball is also ahead of the last defender. The second offensive player shoots and scores, but the goal is ruled offside.

Note: The second offensive player was not offside at the time of the shot, but moved into an offside position after the ball bounced off the keeper.

What would your call have been and why?

Thanks!

Questions:

1. What is the box?
2. A goal is ruled offside? I know a player can be guilty of being in an offside position, but a goal cannot be offside.
3. Note: The second offensive player was not offside at the time of the shot, but moved into an offside position after the ball bounced off the keeper. Huh? How could the 2nd attacker move into an offside position if the ball was kicked forward towards the goal and bounced back to the 2nd attacker. This statement suggests that the 2nd attacker was behind the ball at all times, which kind of makes it impossible to move into an offside position.

The imprecise language here is suggests that the poster is not the best authority on the laws of the game.

1st attacker dribbles the ball into the penalty area/goal area, location is not that interesting except that the first attacker is presumably onside and close to the goal. 2nd attacker receives that ball after a deflection by the goalkeeper and kicks the ball into the goal. The goal is disallowed because the 2nd attacker was in an offside position when the first attacker kicked the ball that was deflected by the goalkeeper.

Was the 2nd attacker in an offside position when the 1st attacker kicked the ball? If the 2nd attacker was in an offside position when the ball was kicked, disallowing the goal is the correct decision. If the 2nd attacker was not in an offside position, then the goal should have been allowed.

All we have is your assertion that the 2nd attacker was not in an offside position. The referee (referees) in that game clearly believed that the 2nd attacker was in an offside position at the moment when the 1st attacker kicked the ball.

So what you are really claiming is that you think a referee got an offside call wrong.

Sheesh, grow up already.

[Unregistered]

ok. here is a maple game from sunday

direct free kick after a foul, 30 yd out from the goal line.

One attacking player 5 yds behind the last defender. Free kick goes over the defensive wall and right to the attacker that was five yds behind the last defender. That attacker receives the ball and gets a shot on goal which the keeper deflects for a corner.

No offside call.

[Unregistered]

ok. here is a maple game from sunday

direct free kick after a foul, 30 yd out from the goal line.

One attacking player 5 yds behind the last defender. Free kick goes over the defensive wall and right to the attacker that was five yds behind the last defender. That attacker receives the ball and gets a shot on goal which the keeper deflects for a corner.

No offside call.

So the player from the attacking team was just standing there in the middle of nowhere 5 yards behind the last defender? Was there a wall, did he run in? Where was the keeper (he counts as a defender too you know)?

[Cujo]

Thanks, Cujo.

The second offensive player was behind the last defender at the time of the shot. The last defender was going for the 1st offensive player as she broke into the box, but for some reason slowed down and let the shot be taken. After the shot was deflected by the keeper, but before the last defender could regain position, the second offensive player moved ahead of the last defender and shot/scored.

Play was called offside on the second offensive player, although they were never truly in an offside position during any of the play and, therefore, did not or could not be called for an "away from the ball" influence on the play.

I think it happened quickly and the A/R was either (1) out of position, so called the offside, or (2) inexperienced and didn't understand what had happened.

Either way, I always hope "bad" calls balance over the course of the game and don't influence the final outcome. Although that is not always the case.

It can be really hard to sort out those plays when the ball, the O and the D are all moving in various directions. It is alot for the brain to process. If you have A/R's you really have to rely on them but the C/R is still in control and can choose whether or not to trust their judgment on the play. Before I disallow a goal I need to be damn sure the player scoring was in an offside position, if I am not positive and the play is that close I am inclined to allow it. I think young players in particular benefit from that. Both defenders and attacking players IMHO.

[Cujo]

Questions:

1. What is the box?
2. A goal is ruled offside? I know a player can be guilty of being in an offside position, but a goal cannot be offside.
3. Note: The second offensive player was not offside at the time of the shot, but moved into an offside position after the ball bounced off the keeper. Huh? How could the 2nd attacker move into an offside position if the ball was kicked forward towards the goal and bounced back to the 2nd attacker. This statement suggests that the 2nd attacker was behind the ball at all times, which kind of makes it impossible to move into an offside position.

The imprecise language here is suggests that the poster is not the best authority on the laws of the game.

1st attacker dribbles the ball into the penalty area/goal area, location is not that interesting except that the first attacker is presumably onside and close to the goal. 2nd attacker receives that ball after a deflection by the goalkeeper and kicks the ball into the goal. The goal is disallowed because the 2nd attacker was in an offside position when the first attacker kicked the ball that was deflected by the goalkeeper.

Was the 2nd attacker in an offside position when the 1st attacker kicked the ball? If the 2nd attacker was in an offside position when the ball was kicked, disallowing the goal is the correct decision. If the 2nd attacker was not in an offside position, then the goal should have been allowed.

All we have is your assertion that the 2nd attacker was not in an offside position. The referee (referees) in that game clearly believed that the 2nd attacker was in an offside position at the moment when the 1st attacker kicked the ball.

So what you are really claiming is that you think a referee got an offside call wrong.

Sheesh, grow up already.

Whoa!!! Slow down. It is ok if the question is imperfect. This is how people learn. When I was coaching younger players I would use visual aids to explain the LOTG relative to being not being in an offside position. The relationship of the 2nd and 3rd attacker to the play can be very confusing for people of any age and it is certainly one of the calls that is purely based on the judgment of the official.

[Cujo]

ok. here is a maple game from sunday

direct free kick after a foul, 30 yd out from the goal line.

One attacking player 5 yds behind the last defender. Free kick goes over the defensive wall and right to the attacker that was five yds behind the last defender. That attacker receives the ball and gets a shot on goal which the keeper deflects for a corner.

No offside call.

Was the player in that position when the kick was taken or did they move behind the wall after? If the latter then not offside. It is also possible that from your angle that they appeared to be behind the second to last defender - it is possible that there was a weak side defender in addition to the goalie that was blocked from your view by the wall.

[Unregistered]

New Question - Do you think that a ref should have to display sufficient physical fitness to officiate games? On Sunday, there was an A/R that could not come close to staying with the last defender. One of the teams plays a very solid off-sides trap. He missed 4 off-sides calls because he was rarely in position to have the appropriate angle. Two of the missed calls resulted in goals.

I believe that a team that imposes this strategy "lives by the trap & dies by the trap". They died by the trap last week, but not because of the capabilities of the opposing midfield to make well-timed runs, but the inability of the A/R to make any runs to keep up with the last defender.

[Unregistered]

Cujo, I have a question for you.

You are center ref. Its in the second half of an evenly played, one goal game.

White team attacks with a long ball over the top to their striker with one blue team defender to beat. Ball and players are in the box, striker takes a touch and rounds the defender. Contact occurs with the striker goal side of the defender. Both players go down.

Your AR on that side is in position and waves his flag for a foul.

You are catching up to the play and do not immediately blow your whistle until you see your AR with the flag waving.

What is your call:

1. PK for white team
2. Foul on striker, DFK for blue team
3. Confer with my AR to get call right

[Unregistered]

Ball is swung in from a flank player. The ball is handled clearly five yards into the penalty area. The referee calls handling of the ball, and then proceeds to move the ball out of the box and award a direct kick. When I questioned the referee as to why this was not a pk, he told me he thought the contact with the ball was incidental and not intentional. Please explain this rationale, because if handling in the box is the call, there is no interpretation.

[Cujo]

New Question - Do you think that a ref should have to display sufficient physical fitness to officiate games? On Sunday, there was an A/R that could not come close to staying with the last defender. One of the teams plays a very solid off-sides trap. He missed 4 off-sides calls because he was rarely in position to have the appropriate angle. Two of the missed calls resulted in goals.

I believe that a team that imposes this strategy "lives by the trap & dies by the trap". They died by the trap last week, but not because of the capabilities of the opposing midfield to make well-timed runs, but the inability of the A/R to make any runs to keep up with the last defender.

Yes, in a perfect world. Unfortunately, an out of shape A/R is better than no A/R or a parent A/R. I agree with the motto especially if the difference in relationship between trapping defender and attacker can be measured in inches when the ball is played. If the A/R and C/R let this play go on the motto is definitely advice well-taken. The step-up at the moment of the run is probably the toughest call for everyone to make and I think the game is well served by allowing play to continue. As with other calls it is a judment call and if I am not convinced that the player was in an offside position then I believe the proper judgment is to let the play go.

If the player was grossly out of position (measured in feet) the C/R should be trying to compensate for the A/R (it sucks but it happens). They are in control of the game and they can either ignore the flag or stop the play.

But to reiterate. The problem is the lack of qualifed A/R's. It is not just the pay but the cost and time that certification and recertification eats up.

Part of the problem rests with the certification process. Personally I think that it is ridiculous that someone who has a National D or higher license should be forced to go through the same process as someone who is "new" or newer to the game. Just let them pay the fees and take the damn test. Cert classes were a total waste of time both in my opinion (I have Nat'l USSF license) and the opinion of everyone else I know with USSF creds. We all could have passed the test without even having reviewed the LOTG. I do that at least annually anyway. I learned absolutely nothing during those 16 hours.

Allowing this would open up the pool to lots more people who simply don't have the time to jump through the hoops that the bureaucratic officiating entities have established.